Episode #15: In Conversation with Kizomba Dancer Charley

TAKEAWAYS

• Charley emphasises the joy of exploration in dance.

• Connection is key in Kizomba, both with partners and music.

• Feedback from partners is crucial for improvement.

• Kizomba offers more freedom of movement Compared to Salsa.

• Teaching should focus on personal expression rather than strict rules.

• Dancing is a form of moving meditation for Charley.

• Misconceptions about Kizomba often oversimplify the dance.

• Personal growth in dance involves embracing vulnerability.

• The importance of creating a safe space for expression in dance.

• Kizomba is a journey of self-discovery and connection.

SOUND BITES

• "The smiles."

• "How do I feel?"

• "Just do it."

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction to Kizomba Conversations
01:29 Charley Dance Journey Begins
03:14 The Transition from Salsa to Kizomba
08:37 First Impressions of Kizomba
11:21 Evolution of Dance Style and Connection
17:18 The Importance of Fundamentals
20:40 Freedom in Kizomba vs Salsa
24:10 Teaching vs Coaching in Dance
31:07 The Essence of Connection in Dance
35:26 The Importance of Connection in Dance
43:37 Misconceptions About Kizomba
48:03 Personal Growth Through Kizomba
53:49 Future Aspirations in Kizomba
55:52 Advice for Leaders and Followers
59:43 Encouragement for New Dancers

TRANSCRIPT

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Hello, Kizomba friends and welcome to the first episode of Kizomba Conversations for 2025. We really hope you enjoy this conversation and look out for more monthly episodes.

Hello, Kizomba enthusiasts and welcome back to another episode of Kizomba Conversations. As always, I'm your host, Victor. And today we are joined by a phenomenal social dancer, all-around nice guy and a joy to watch on the dance floor. So let's welcome Charley to the podcast.

Charley, how are you?

I am incredible. I'm peaceful in a blissful state and in good company.

Fantastic. And incredible is a great word. Welcome. We're really happy to have you here today.

Yeah, thank you.

No, no, we're really happy to have you. And we're really looking forward to getting involved into your conversation. Yeah. Sounds great.

Good, good, good. Well, as you know, then Charley, you know, you've been dancing for a while and I know that you've seen some of the episodes before. So, you know, the first question that we always want to start with and that is a bit about who is Charley. And this is before Kizomba. So anything you want to share with us that we don't know about you or people don't know about you, what can you tell us about yourself? Someone who likes to explore. I think that's the overall statement.

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exploring places, exploring people, exploring myself. And I had a childhood involved doing lots of different activities. I started with martial arts, doing extreme sports like skateboarding, rock climbing, things like that.

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enjoying Kompany with people my age and people 10 years older than me, 15, 20 years, sometimes even people that are 40 years older than me. I've been able to fulfil that desire of connection from a young age all the way up until now. And I think that's something that has made me stick in the Kizomba scene and community for so long and so intensely as well.

Fantastic. Picking up on what you said then, because you said you like to explore. Okay, so you went through a range of things there, which is really great. Keeps so you in that exploration, you've, um, you're quite active. Yeah. Quite active. More in my past. I think since I started the Kizomba dancing, it's taken over. It's still active. Yeah. But it's not quite the, you know, extreme.

intensity that I used to go for. Yeah. Okay. So then how did you explore    Kizomba? How did that come into your life in your explorations? Okay. I think as it does with a lot of people, my dance exploration started with Salsa. Yes. And it started with Cuban Salsa. So when I was about 15 years old, I saw the film Cuban Fury and fell in love with the music.

with the energy that people seem to be given by this and the way that people moved as well. And so I said to myself, I need to do that. And it took me about two years to actually get into it. But I called up a local Salsa club in my hometown of Bexley Heath. Bexley Heath. And ended up going along to Jose de la Torres.

his Salsa club, Cuban Salsa. And it was all about just fun and dancing, not focusing on learning steps and patterns. He would dance and we would try and copy what he was doing. And yeah, it was great. Two hours of smiling. Yeah, no, absolutely. Like a lot of people, we always say it, come from Salsa, start off with the Salsa. So with Salsa then, what specifically got you?

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I know you mentioned it just now, when you looked at it, what was it like, ooh, I need to do that?

It was the smiles. The smiles. Yeah. Yeah, the smiles. And initially, when I started to see it, it was seeing people smiling. And then when I did it for the first time, I remember my cheeks hurting the following morning from how much joy it brought me. And yeah, that then ended up developing. I did just Cuban Salsa for about a year and a half.

and then started doing crossbody Salsa as well. And that's actually how I ended up finding Kizomba. Because maybe for four or six months before the lockdowns happened, that crossbody Salsa club was doing taster sessions for like a four week rotation. They would do 20 minutes before the Salsa classes on Kizomba, on Bachata, on Cha-Cha-Cha.

and a couple other things as well. so Massimo Mazoka was my Salsa teacher and then in a sense, my first Kizomba teacher as well, because he was the person that introduced me to it. And again, like with a lot of people, Ghetto Zouk was the music that I was hearing first. I didn't know it at the time. but now

whenever I hear these songs, every now and then on the dance floor, takes me back, you know, four or five years and yeah, puts me on those dance floors in Dartford. Where they always get Zouk playing. so, okay, Dartford, okay, right, right. But the, you know, I think the next point on that pushed it even further for me, it gave me a new feeling. There was a festival in Folkestone, Grand Dance Weekend.

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I'm not sure if it still runs or not. hope it does. But it was an SBK festival. First festival I did. For those that don't know SBK, what does that mean? Acronym? Salsa Bachata Kizomba. Thank you. I'm putting a petition in to put the K first. I like that. like that. And yeah, went along to this festival. And I saw Jay Dixon and his feet moving as he danced Samba. OK. And again.

The music got me, the smiles got me, the movements got me. And so I remember when I saw his dancing, I said, this is what I need to be doing. It was exactly the same as the first time I saw Salsa, but elevated completely. And then of course, the world locked down a week later. And so passion started to bubble inside of me.

Yeah. Then it was just, there was always more opportunity for exploration, more things that would be revealing themselves about Kizomba. So, all of that really started after lockdown at the Tropical Summer Festival in Plymouth, which again is SBK. But I saw for the first time some of the teachers from London. So,

Richard Voogt and Louisa, they were teaching at the time, and Manon Batrel and Rico Suave. So they were teaching at this festival. And I didn't even realize that Kizomba was something that you could do at regular classes. I thought it was something that was taught at festivals. So I ended up going to Richard's classes and yeah, that's where everything started. Chocolate Kizomba with Seyi and...

Yeah, Said's events at Vicio on the Saturdays keeping me up until five in the morning in Brixton. are places away in London that are on the scene. All right. Great, Charley. Great. Tell me how it was when you... So the first Kizomba lesson you had, can you remember the feeling of that?

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So for me, I'll mark out the first Kizomba lesson I had as my lesson with Josie. Josie Semkiz. Yes. Yes. Yeah. In Bar Salsa temple.

because it was the, you know, the first of these regular classes that I was doing. It wasn't something where I'm going to a festival and there were, you know, advanced tricks and things like that being, being taught. was just beginner's class with Josie. Fundamentals with an expert on fundamentals. And it was fun. It was, it was fun. was new.

And I had total opportunity to ask all the questions that I needed to. And I got to enjoy meeting new people and moving in a way that I hadn't done before. And just laughing continuously because the way that Josie teaches, she just puts a smile on your face. I was about to say, if there's one word we can describe Josie as is absolute fun. Shout out to Josie. You're coming on the...

podcast soon. Amazing. I'll give her a poke. So, yeah, absolutely. So, so fun. And that's just what kept you spurred you on to keep coming back and doing more. Yeah. After that first, that first one. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It was a, Monday night classes and I would do Josie's Semba class and then immediately after, Mikumba Williams and, Shaïna Kalila's Kizomba class. Okay. And

It was so much fun and the socials immediately after just as much and taking me, you know, to midnight or past midnight where I then have to get a night bus, an hour and a half home afterwards to then start work at in the morning. And I did it every single week. It's worth it, right? couldn't stop myself. worth it. Yeah, yeah. 100%. No, that's great. And so you were blessed to have some really good people there. So you mentioned Josie, mentioned Shaïna.

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and some other people that you mentioned there as well. that's really good in terms of your development. So in terms of your development, how has, so since you've started Kizomba, how has your journey been in terms of your dancing? How has it evolved over the years to where you are now? I think that initially there was more focus on the steps that were being taught in the classes. My background is in...

music. I grew up playing, not professionally or anything like that, but I grew up playing the drums, playing the guitar and singing. so... Did you say singing? Okay. All right. Cool. Yeah. I've irritated my parents quite a lot in the shower. Okay. Cool. Yeah. No, I enjoy it. It's good fun. But having that background meant I...

resonated more with Kizomba and Semba than I did with Salsa because there was more freedom to move. And these, these passada dances where you're walking through the dance, you can choose how to dance far more in, in at least my understanding at the moment. I imagine that if I took Salsa all the way up, then you know, people would say,

you can dance Salsa in any way you want. Because it's dance, it's a way of expressing yourself. And so I think that actually is how my dancing has changed over the past three and a half years. I've gone from being more focused on the steps to being focused on the connection with the music, the connection with the partner and then with myself as well.

and trying to have as much fun in the moment to take out any kind of rules that have been placed on the dance and just go onto the dance floor and just try and share joy with that person that I'm dancing with in the moment and just really feel as much as possible. Yeah, because this dance is all about feeling, isn't it? And we'll come back to that in a moment. But I want to find out from you. So for someone who's picked it up so well,

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I think it picks up very well indeed. What were the components that helped you pick it up so well? Can you pinpoint anything?

I think what allowed me to pick it up quicker was having such a focus on the beginners classes and really wanting to be confident in understanding what it was that I'm doing to make sure that I'm doing it right, to take my time with things. but then also to try and be as reflective as possible. So in the classes, I would be asking the followers.

how things felt, if I was doing it right, or I'd even be asking people, because I'd watch other leads. And I would ask the followers what was different between mine and his lead in the dances. And then as well during the social dances, would, well, firstly, for the parties, I would stay from the start till the finish. And I would be nonstop dancing. I'd dance with every single person that was there.

two, three, four songs with people and then say, thank you very much for the dance. You're a lights, you're the lights on guy when the club finishes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm the one that, you know, they're sweeping at your feet with the mops. Yeah. And then you try to bring them to the dance as well. But, uh, yeah, it would just be trying to take as much time as I could to enjoy the dancing. Um, and I would ask for feedback as well at the end of a social dance. If it was...

someone that I had not met before, or if it was someone that I regularly danced with, it doesn't matter who it was, I would ask, what was good about the dance? What did you enjoy and what could I have done to make it better? And genuinely listen as well and try and take that feedback on. And I think that gave me a good foundation. And then more recently, it's been a case of internal reflection. It's how do I feel? So everything is changing to...

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How do I feel? I think that's something that when you become more advanced in anything, you're able to switch your feedback systems from being external to being more internal. So my external feedback systems for myself used to be, if someone recorded me dancing, or if I asked someone to record me dancing, I would look at the things that I was doing. So something that I used to do is, you know, I put my hand

on the followers back, my hand would be spread out. And so I didn't like the way that looked. So I immediately, relaxed my hand and it's something that I realized I was being tense in the dance. And that was an expression of it, but a subconscious expression of that tension. So relaxing my hand, that was one thing. But now those feedback systems are more internal. It's based on how do I feel in the dance. And it's either switch on,

Or if I'm in total bliss, then, you know, I'm just free-flying. But there are, are chances where, you know, with a dance partner, if I'm doing some sort of training that I switch on the feedback systems and really try and focus on what are we all feeling here? absolutely love it. I love the fact that you can reflect. Not everybody can. I love the fact that, you know, you watch yourself and that just the example of the hand. I'm a big, you know, big fan of, well fan, but I enjoy the fact that, you know, watching yourself because you learn so.

So much people don't get this. know, some of my friends, know, some when I go out, I'm take a video record of me dancing, please. And it's because I want to see what I'm doing and what I'm not doing or what I should be doing and then adjust it. And it just helps you so much. really interesting to hear that. Also, you talked about the fact that you focus on the basics. Not a lot of people can do that because they don't want to do that. Because they want to go straight to the end. Right. Yes. So.

It's great to hear that. And also how long was it for you roughly? Did you, did you stay before you thought, thought, know what, let me, let me move on or I'm a bit comfortable now. I remember the moment that I got kicked out of the beginners class by Josie because she said to me, I have nothing more to teach you in this class. because I'd already tried to negotiate staying in that class with her and that was her immediate feedback. So.

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It was six months. Six months of doing the beginners class, which was actually what was the suggested time. So in Richard's school, it was the RV dance. It was six months at beginners. And then I believe up to a year and a half was the intermediates. And then a year and a half or two years and above was the advanced classes.

I would often see people doing, you know, three weeks at beginners and then moving up. And some people would stop at the, the advanced class and then quickly realize it wasn't for them. And then they jumped straight back down. I find that often we, we don't want to hurt ourselves. And so the approach that we might find ourselves taking

is overestimating what we're capable of. And as a result, not actually getting out all of the benefit that we could do and taking a more humbled approach of, don't know what I'm doing. And there's so much for me to learn in this allows you to take the criticism.

because you have low expectations of what your abilities might be. And so you don't get hurt when you don't get things right. But a lot of the time we, you know, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to say, should be getting this right. There's no reason for that. If something's totally brand new to you, or even if you've been doing something for a week, a month, a year, whatever, and you make a mistake, it's not a problem. It's just a case of what can you do to reflect? Yeah. Learn and learn and learn.

OK, six months, very precise. All right, so great background in terms of Salsa, Kizomba, your length of time in it. And I'm just mentioning those two because I want to find out what makes Kizomba for you different Compared to, is it just Salsa you did before, Kizomba? I had a small amount of experience with bachata. OK, yeah. More on the sensual side.

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After I started Kizomba, I also did a bit of Dominican Bachata as well with Brandy Colares. I'm hoping I remember his name right.

Okay, so the biggest difference for me with the Salsa and the Kizomba...

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was the freedom of movement that I had. In the classes, even though everything was very much a four walls approach, which I find is more, if my understanding is right, and again, maybe the experts will hate me on this one, but it's more of the urban kids way of doing things. The four walls, where you end up facing in a particular direction because the way that they dance is more precise.

I liked the freedom that was available in Kizomba because you can move in any direction you want. You can be turning any amount that you want.

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In Salsa, the way that we were taught it was you have those certain fixed steps. You know, have your Salsa basics, which I really enjoy. You whenever I dance Salsa, you get in that sort of trance state because you're doing those particular steps. But I like the complete freedom to feel the music in Kizomba. You can move any direction you want. You can slow the steps down when the singer slows their voice or...

You you start moving more energetically when the song picks up. It's enjoyable for me having that freedom to be able to allow the music to resonate within me and express that resonation outwards. That's great. That's great. So you mentioned there the freedom. So I did Salsa before I came to Kizomba. But I couldn't do Cuban. OK, I'm not going to say I couldn't do. I found it challenging to do.

Cuban Salsa, even though call Cuban Salsa real Salsa. People might get at me for that, authentic Salsa to me is Cuban. I could do cross body quite well. And in cross body, I can see the rules that you're talking about. Is it the same in Cuban then in terms of the freedom?

I don't know if my understanding of Cuban is good enough to answer the question. But I would say when I look at the Cuban dance floor Compared to looking at the cross body dance floor, I see people moving more freely responding more to the music. Yeah, sorry. Let me base my question. So what I'm trying to say is that so you're Comparing Kizomba freedom. Yeah. Would that be Compared to Cuban?

as opposed to in my experience. Yes, exactly. I would say.

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for, because I only did the Cuban Salsa at a low level. I never went particularly at moments with it. Maybe not even intermediate. But maybe because of that, I still felt restricted in the dances. Just because my knowledge wasn't good enough. But what I do know is after stopping Salsa for about a year to get addicted to Kizomba dancing, when I came back and danced it at, I believe actually,

Plymouth the following year was the first time I danced Salsa properly for quite a long time after starting Kizomba. Making that change of having a feeling of music and confidence in my lead, my Salsa dancing hugely improved, though I hadn't touched Salsa for months and months. that's really interesting. Must be something with the music and be detuned.

Cool. No, no. Fantastic. Just great to hear. Great to hear. And then also, if I'm not mistaken, you're teaching, right, Ka   Kizomba? Talk to us, OK. So I'm starting to share the experiences and the understandings that I have, yes. I don't know if I would label it teaching. I quite enjoy the use of the word coaching. OK.

with the difference being, you know, a dance is something that is personal. The reasons for people going to dancing are personal. And the experience that I would want people to have on the dance floor is, I'm here and enjoy it in the way that you want to. so I hugely appreciate all of the work that all teachers are doing. And I always find that, you

people will pick which teachers they want to go to based on how those teachers dance. often it's a case of you see an amazing dancer, you go, want to dance like them. And so for me, what I would rather have people say is they see my dancing and they go, I want to have as much fun as he is. Oh, they see that child. So I don't want to prescribe.

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how people should look when they're dancing. But what I do want is to help people with connection and understanding how to connect because I find having a background in formal teaching with the school education system and even a professional background as well, doing accounting and things. So I've had the experience of

not being able to do something for the feeling of it. It's because these are the rote instructions that you have and you have to follow them and there's this certain objective at the end to be able to achieve. And I think sometimes maybe people need to have a place where they can unlearn how to follow the instructions. And that's what I like the idea of doing. So through that...

The ideas are teaching people how to connect back to themselves, how to connect to the music that's being played in the dance venues that they go to, or even in the kitchen when they're dancing and loading the dishwasher. Yeah, absolutely. That was a lot of my experience. And also how to connect to the person in front of them, because it's a very, very disconnected world that we can end up living in.

So opportunity to find out how people do that, opportunity to have discussions in classes on how to do that. And that's how my Kompa dance partner, Jessica Larbi and I took our Kompa workshops when we were over in Zurich. It was a discussion of, you know, I'm not teaching you this information. I love how Jessica phrased it. She said, we're hoping to remind you of what you already know.

You watch a baby listening to music and they rock to the song. When they're rocking more in time, they're having a more joyful experience. There's a bigger smile on their face. And so dance is something that's natural to us. And we know how to dance, but then all of the knowledge and the understanding gets blocked because you get told, sit in that stacking chair. No, no. Great, great, great answer. So would you...

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want to explore teaching down the line, as in teaching, teaching, or is that not something that's on your? I think I would carry on with the same approach that I'm doing. Yeah. But I'd be open to doing regular classes. It's something that I would really enjoy doing, especially because

There are certain styles of music that I really enjoy that really resonate with me and

where the dance scene is something, especially up in London, the venues cost so much money. So there has to be a way of bringing in everyone to the venues. And so sometimes more commercial music might get played. And for me, the style of music that I like is soulful, where you know that people that have made the music are making it purely because they love it. And...

you know, some of the music that really resonates for me is music from Guinea-Bissau. And I remember the first time I heard music from Guinea-Bissau was watching Ibra Sunny and Jennifer Palermo on Instagram. A reel came up of them dancing to Dada by Eva and Ishi. And I commented straight away on the video and I said...

I love the simplicity of your dancing and the connection. And I love the song. I can't find it. It's not coming up on any sort of song searches. Can you send me the name? So he did. it's for me, I know I'm taking away from the question here. you have to bring me back onto the question as well. For me, the idea of

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running classes actually should be a case of as a person who enjoys this is someone passionate about it. What aspect, what reflection of the scene that I've seen do I want to show to other people? so I would more than happily do it, but it would be very much doing it my way. And it wouldn't be about

getting the most people coming along or making it possible to sustain a living from it. would just be, I'd love a happy place I can go to where I can say to other people, come and experience this. For the passion, for the joy. That's we want to hear, Exactly what we want to hear. Okay. No, that's great. And thank you for sharing, Charley. So I want to move on and talk to you more than about this word.

And that word is connection. right? A that you love and a word that's so important in Kizomba. But the first thing I want to find out is with connection, when you're dancing with someone, if you don't have that connection, if you don't have it, because you don't always dance with people the same way.

Oh, every dance is different. Absolutely. And you can have a better connection with somebody else and you can with someone else. You know, it's just all different. So the question I'm just trying to figure out is if you don't get that connection with someone, let's say you're out and you don't get that connection, you dance with someone. Would you still try to go back to that person as many times as you can until you get it? Or is it just the case of, I've tried this so many times. Yes, we see each other, we dance. This is not working.

You see the question. I'm just trying to figure it out. know, what do you do there? Okay. So I think for me, there are a couple answers to it. One is why is the connection not coming about? And

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There's always a way that you can connect with someone. I don't look for the same connection with every person. I have an analogy on dancing and dance venues as being ice cream shops. Now, what's your favourite flavour ice cream, Victor? I'm going to be really boring, man. Really boring. There's no judgment here. Yeah, I'm just going to go boring and just stay vanilla.

You make a good choice. I hold 100 % respect for it. Okay. So when you go to the ice cream shop, do you always order vanilla ice cream? Not always. Okay. Do you sample other things as well? 100%. Good. I'm glad because you get to experience more of the world. Yes. Yeah. More of the ice cream shop. Yes. Okay.

That's how I believe we should do things. We have our favourite thing, but we also go to places and we allow ourselves to sample other things because those things might be good for us. And I feel like on the dance floor, we often don't do that. We go into it with approach of this is how I dance and it's not even a conscious thing. It's just.

This is how I dance, so I'm going to go onto the dance floor and I'm going to dance in my way. And I find that...

In a sense, leaders always eat their favourite flavour of ice cream and followers never get the chance to eat their favourite flavour. my God. Because, this is the extreme example of it. Where as leads, we have control over how that dance can go. And we also have the ability to control

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how much we are leading the follower compared to controlling the follower in the dance. And there are big elements of trust that go on there. The more freedom you give the other person to enjoy the dance for themselves, the more trust you're showing them in that dance. And so if a leader was to go onto the dance floor, hold the follower tight, take her in every place that he wants to.

move his body in the way that he wants to as well. He's only eating his flavour of ice cream and the follower could not be there and it wouldn't make a difference to his dance. That follower has a certain way, natural movement, certain way that she wants to naturally move. And by dancing with that type of lead who is

only ever going to eat his favourite flavour of ice cream. She never gets a chance to eat her favourite flavour, to move in the way that her body naturally does. He or she. I, cause I them follow actually. And so for me,

I find it so important to engage in the interaction that you're having and see it as an opportunity to sample someone else's flavour. So I don't go in expecting the connection to be the most amazing thing possible, but what I try and do is to make it as good as it can be. And connection isn't just a case of being like that, pressed up against the other person.

there's an energy to it, you you have physical connection, emotional, spiritual, all sorts of different things. And so I've had dances in the past where I've been connected with people just in a big wide open frame because that's all they've been comfortable with. But actually they've been so present in that dance that spiritually I feel completely connected with them. And so

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I enjoy the one, challenge of dancing with different people. And two, I enjoy the different connections that can come about. So, yeah, if I had a dance where I didn't feel like I connected well with that person, I'd reflect and I think what can I do to improve it? And I do during the dance as well. think about how can I improve this dance? I've got a good friend called Sarah from Germany and I remember our first dance.

we started in a connection that was on her part, an open embrace, very big space between the two of us. So during that dance, I signalled that I wanted to be closer by doing moves that would draw us closer to each other so that I was saying, you know, there's no need to worry here, it's a safe connection, safe space. But then I would release my frame.

so that she had the ability to then choose to come in closer if she wanted to. And now she's one of my closest friends. And the way that we dance is completely connected. So reflection is a good thing, but then also changing expectations of what it means to connect is important as well. And not judging someone if they want to be spaced out. Yeah, no.

Great. Great. Let's unpack this further, Let's go deep. All right. So all the way to the bottom of the ice cream. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's your flavour, people? But anyway, let's go deep. So connection then, right? So important. And in terms of connection, when I see you dance,

You know, if somebody has come in that night heavy, they're leaving light. They're leaving light, lighter than a feather, because they just...

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I don't want to use the word surrender because they'll be surrenders, but they just... No, I think it is a surrender. Yeah. But from... Surrendered people. can be from the lead and the follow. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So they just feel like... I don't mean to embarrass you because, you know, I see it. know, oh, Charley's here. Yeah. Charley. And then, you know, they're dancing and it's like, it's like they're gone.

they're gone. See this so many times, right? I don't get to see any faces. They're there. You know who you are. They love Charley. Right. So I guess what I'm trying to find out and what I'm focusing on connection is because I'm just trying to get for people to understand this dance is about connection. It's about feeling. Yeah. And how to, how to get that because not everybody can, can get that. So it's a case of just thinking about or asking you, you know, what are you doing in that moment to make them

feel like that. You just explained it a little bit there. Is there any tips that you can give to anyone who's trying to improve their connection? Because I'll be honest, I'm out sometimes. I see you. I'm waiting for Charley. I want to dance for Charley. I want to feel like. Dance with me if you want. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean. Anyone can ask me for a dance. don't mind.

So it's all to us. I don't want to embarrass you, right? But that's basically what it is. Thank you. I don't think I should be embarrassed like That's a nice thing to have said. absolutely. So what do I do to improve the connection? Yeah, yeah. OK.

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Make the dance about them. Yeah. Make the dance about that person's experience. And my brother said something to me, not about dancing, but about friendships and interactions. Five, six, seven years back on winning the battle, but not winning the war where sometimes there might be a political conversation that comes up and someone

will be so passionate about what they have, what their views are on that political topic, that they then beat their friend down and they win the battle of that conversation. But actually then the friendship is tarnished. And that friend then thinks, maybe I don't really want to meet that person again. And I think it's a case of you should aim to win the war, so to speak.

is by acting in a way that allows you to have the best interaction possible that will lead to another interaction, you get more opportunity to improve connecting with that person. so focusing just on that, can we make this happen again and again just by being soft with each other and not

trying to overstep our boundaries, the other person's boundaries. Because everyone has their boundaries. And it's not like you go into the dance and you say to someone, okay, I'd like to dance and I'm comfortable connecting with my chest and my feet, know, kind of thing. No one does that. Almost all of it is nonverbal communication that's going on. So a lot of attention has to be paid to what are the person's boundaries that I am working with.

And am I communicating mine? Am I communicating my boundaries? And am I communicating my desires in the dance? So like the first time I had Lissara, I understood her boundaries because she had a solid frame. But I also then did little things in the dance that allowed me to communicate to her, I'd like to be closer here. And those signals were received and she didn't feel that I was overstepping her boundaries because I towed the line and then

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I'd allow her to move the line herself instead. So just that respect, I think, is a big thing.

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It's such a huge, huge topic. It is. I wanted to touch on it lightly and I think I've got my answer there. Well, I have got my answer there. So it's just really about, you know, the respect, the boundaries and just, I guess, inviting, isn't it? At the appropriate times when you're in that moment. Yes. To make that person feel relaxed and trusted. And then that leads on to my next question because connections are important, right? And having all these things is important. But then, you know, some people who don't know too much about Kizomba.

would see it and they think what are they doing? It's a little bit close or whatever it might be depending on who they're watching dance right? you know are there any misconceptions that you've heard in your time of dancing? Okay, yep. Some of the misconceptions that you have come across Charley about Ka   Kizomba to educate people.

I was having a conversation with a new friend of mine who she started dancing Kizomba about a year and a half ago. But over that time, she's heard something that I also heard going on when, you know, I've gone to different places, festivals, classes, whatever. The three song rule. Yeah. Yeah. So for me, the three song rule is I'm going to dance three songs because...

I want to try and dance a good amount. I want to have good opportunity connect in connecting with this person. But then I also want to have good opportunity connecting with everyone else that's in this room because what an amazing thing that is to be able to dance with 20, 30, 40 people in one night. And for a lot of other people, the message that's been put forward on this three song rule is if someone dances

more than three songs with you it means that they have more interest.

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Another misconception that goes to the same place is if someone puts their hand on your neck, it means that they want the dance to go somewhere else or they want that interaction, that relationship to go somewhere else. I feel things are oversimplified far too much because we're humans. We're very, very complex and we're all different. And so.

You know, I went to Zouklove London and in that dance class, they said, you can connect through having your hands on the back, hands on the shoulders, or you can even put your hand on the neck if you want a really close dance. And I thought that was amazing. You're telling people that this connection, this hand on the back of the neck is if you want to have a close dance. And for me, that's all it is. Is you're going to these places.

you're sharing moments, you're having a dance with someone, at the end of it you say, thank you very much for the dance. And that's a clear signal of all of that, that we just had that close intimacy with another person was in the safe space of a dance. And I find that it requires a lot of emotional intelligence and a lot of emotional resilience as well, because if someone is being intimate with you and you want more than that with them,

You know, you want it to go somewhere. Having to remind yourself, okay, this is just a dance and allowing yourself not to be hurt by someone else's intentions of being different to you, takes a lot of emotional resilience and a lot of emotional intelligence. And I find that the misconceptions, these simple rules, that this means that, that's what causes...

problems between people. Absolutely. Great. Yep. And great answer again. And again, we can talk a long time about that. But I think that's great the way you articulated that in some of the misconceptions. So people can hear, especially new people watching it and looking at it. It's different because not everybody dances like us. they'll go out to their clubs or whatever it might be. And they'll be thinking,

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How are these people dancing so close with each other? What are they doing? And people have all different kinds of things in their minds, isn't it? So it's just interesting to hear. Yeah, definitely. All right. So in terms of your personal journey, what has Kizomba taught you about yourself?

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There is one really specific answer that comes to mind.

Again, one of my closest friends has had involvement with this. When I first started dancing Kizomba, I enjoyed a class that I had the ability to go on the dance floor and show, you know, this sort of like upright stance and just the classy nature. it was, was, was an opportunity where I could go to these places and enjoy that persona.

But then it also ended up creating a bit of an identity crisis where I've got the Charley that I've been for so long. have this Charley that I'm also wanting to have. Going to these dance venues, I'm not allowing the two things to connect. And I have another analogy and this is the specific answer.

of the toothbrush version of yourself. Yeah. I have toothbrush Charley, you have toothbrush Victor. Okay. And the reason this came about was I had a conversation with this friend and said that I'm feeling uncomfortable when I go to these dance events. I don't feel like me. And I don't feel like I can freely dance and let myself move.

I'm restricted and it especially came about when there were different genres of music being played that weren't couples dancing. Like you have the Kuduro, the Afro House, Afro Beats, whatever it might be. These songs would get played and I just wanted to dance to them. didn't want there to be a, you know, there's this strict way that you have to do things. It's just, want to go and express. So this idea of toothbrush version of ourselves. As you're standing there in your bathroom or toilet on your own, brushing your teeth in front of the mirror.

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No one else is around. And so you can be anything. And allowing yourself to be anything means you're allowing yourself to be you. And you put some music on in the bathroom and you move around like a total idiot. And you don't feel judgment from anyone because it's just you that's in there. And so I wanted Toothbrush Charley to come out on the dance floor. And I feel like that growth has

come about. I go onto these dance floors now and I don't mind being silly and expressing myself in the way that I want to and disconnecting from the dance and just dancing on my own and you know watching the other person enjoy dancing on their own as well.

You'll have to remind me the wording of your question because I want to come back. It's fine. So it's basically about you what's because I'm going to talk to you about yourself. Yeah. That's what it was. That's what the question was. Okay. So it's then taught a

I don't want to judge myself. I don't want to judge others. And I want to be free to play and express in the way that resonates with me in that moment, rather than doing something that's prescribed by someone else as the right way to do things. How has it felt? Okay, what was the first time feeling the toothbrush?

Charley, how was that? How did that feel the first time? The first time was nerve wracking. Yeah. Yeah. Because, I remember it. was at, you know, an after party at So We Kiz. And it must've been about 10 in the morning because I forced the after parties to keep on going. Omar, Omar, I know you hate me. But in this after party, this friend was here.

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and

She asked me to dance, but we didn't dance together. We were dancing separate. And she's an absolutely incredible dancer. So I was just enjoying watching her dance, but I let myself go as well. felt that I could be vulnerable in her presence. So everyone else was around and I wasn't with them. I was just with this friend. And she gave me the space, gave me the safety to express myself.

And that was the first little hurdle of allowing the toothbrush to come out. There's a lot of toothbrushes, I think, that need to come out. I think so. Yeah. There's a lot of dirty teeth. Easy, I haven't seen any. I haven't seen any. No, yeah. I think this goes down to expression, you know, people's personalities as well sometimes. And some people are more expressive and some people aren't.

those who aren't, then I think that's a good analogy. yeah, just let it go. know, And the of the day, it's dance. And that's what we're there for. Right? Yeah. Just to have fun. So yeah, that's what it's about. That's what it's about. Okay. So what's next in your Kizomba journey? There's a very, very big thing next. Yes. In just under a week's time, I go to Portugal. I'm going there for two weeks to work on my Portuguese a bit more.

because at the moment I only speak a little bit. And that's to prepare me to go to Angola. And I'll be there for three weeks on the Kuddisanga tour with Carlos and Anna. And countless other people who are going to explore the roots. And so for me, I'm using that opportunity in several ways. It's to go and hear...

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different music because I know the DJs out there playing songs made by locals that don't make it over to Europe. So I cannot wait to hear the fresh sounds. I'm going to use it to make my feet break. Okay. And force myself to buy some new pairs of shoes because of how much dancing that I'll do. But I'm also hoping to use the opportunity to ask a lot of questions that I have about

what the dance is and what it used to be and why people dance.

sounds really really exciting really really exciting and you say they've been for three weeks three weeks yeah jealous of you because you're gonna be in some good weather as well yeah I know but you'll have the great English weather of you know rain and bitter cold no and just the fact that you know it's Angola isn't it and well you definitely gonna be danced out by the time you get there yeah you know

forward to it. no, no. So really, really, really, really enjoy that one. You really, really enjoy it. A couple more things before we wrap up. Just a couple of things. You kind of done it already, but can you give some advice to leaders and followers? Just one piece of advice to improve leading and improve following those people. Yes. And I'll do it through the ideas of masculine and feminine roles. And this is

my views on masculine and feminine roles purely based on, again, feeling. So the definitions that I give, you know,

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being masculine, being feminine. Being masculine is creating a safe space where the feminine is able to confidently express themselves.

And being feminine is creating confidence for the masculine to be able to fully express themselves. And the reason that I say masculine and feminine, not man and woman in any part of that is because we all have masculine and feminine within us. And there's almost a

spectrum of positions that you could fall within that. And the ability to tap into your masculinity and your femininity in any situation allows you to improve your interaction with that, especially when it's two people that are involved. So part of what I did in the comp workshop was to lead and follow and demonstrate that for everyone and ask them to see

How does my face, how does my way of moving change as I change between these two roles? And one of the participants said, he felt that when I was following the aura that I gave off was that of someone in a blissful state. And when I was leading, it was more...

focused in a sense. And that was his perception of it. I would say in both positions, I felt very, very blissful, but there was a clear change in my energy in that situation. And so my advice for leaders is create a safe space so that that follower can express himself without having to think about, I being held too tight or am I going to get bumped into...

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that couple next to me or am I going to get dipped by someone that has been taught in a way that doesn't work with me? And for the follows, my advice would be give your leader as much confidence as possible because by giving a leader confidence, you tell them, doesn't matter where you take me, doesn't matter how you take me there, I know that you're going to do the right thing with me and I know that you're going to allow us both.

to have the best time possible. That would be my advice. Fantastic advice, people. You heard it here, as always. But no, I think it's great advice. I mean, for both of them. But obviously, I'm going to hone in on the leading part, because obviously, that's what I do more of. But when you can do both, I think that's where mastery comes into play, because you've got both sides. And I know you do both. Hence the reason why I asked you the question about giving advice for that.

And it's interesting to hear what that guy said about his, what he sees and when you change, because you're central, you're in a blissful state for both of them, right? But then that's coming across from different people. So really, really powerful stuff. thank you very much for sharing that with Thank you for asking. Charley. Anyone who's curious about Kizomba, but hasn't taken a plunge, what you going to say? Do it.

End of story. Just do it. Well, do it, but just make sure that you have a stable income ahead of you. Oh, just mean, oh, even dancing just as in because... Well, no, no, just because your wallet will not thank you for spending so much money on the addiction that you have to I think it's a common story. I get it. Yeah. We didn't even touch on festivals.

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All right, Charley, so where can we find you? Where can we look at your dancing or just see you in general? Yeah, sure. On Instagram, it's probably the best place, I would say. Beatbox Buddha is the Instagram handle because that was my PlayStation account when I was 11 years old. it's stuck all the way through 14 years later. So yeah, that's the best place to find me. But other than that, find me on the dance floor.

I can't tell you which one because it's always changing. 100%. I love it. Why do you want to dance for? Charley, thank you so much for joining us. It's been great, really great talking to you and talking about connection and those things. So thank you for coming on. And obviously this is the first time you're to be coming back anyway. So I know that for a fact. I appreciate that. But we always finish off with some fun questions. Yes. I was looking forward to this. Looking forward to those. right. So you've got three cards there.

The idea is you pick one, read it, and then answer it. So which one you want to I haven't had to play it yet, I'm just going to go.

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Yeah. So what does it say? It says, would you rather, goodness me. okay. Would you rather go a month without dancing or a month without listening to music? That's a hard question.

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OK. I think I would rather go a month without listening to music. Because most of the songs I know in my mind, they play all the time, but also for me, in fact, no, no, I'm going to change my answer. I was going to say things are about movement for me and the ability to freely move my body. But Jessica told me that I need to get back into doing yoga because I keep on complaining.

that I don't move enough. actually I'll get my movement through yoga and I'll listen to my songs on the sofa. So just to be clear what you're going to, you're going to do, which one? will go a month without dancing.

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Very tough. Very, very tough. Very tough indeed. question. Especially made. But anyway. What's your next one? You're very evil. OK.

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Okay. If Kizomba had a superhero superpower, what would you choose? Teleportation, mind control, stopping time. like the idea of stopping time because it means I can get caught in that moment. Nice. However,

I find that being in a journey and appreciating things as they come and go is very important. I wouldn't like mind control because it would prevent me from having the experience with the other person. It takes them away from being in it and it makes it all about me again. connection. I like the idea of teleportation because my flight fees are getting really expensive.

as I keep teleportation is lovely. So I would have chosen teleportation. It's only because mine's a bit weird. only because right only because you know, sometimes we have events and they're all on the same time. So you have a night where you have the same, right? So I'd be like, okay, right. I'm here. Let me go over there. See what's going on. So I'll just go there.

and go there, then go there. Do you see what I mean? So that's reason why I would choose teleportation. was tempted to do it tonight because I know that there's like four events on tonight. Yeah, exactly. So where do you go? Yeah. But I actually have a second reason for this as well. And it stems off of your response about going to the actual dance events. Sometimes when I'm dancing, I really need to use the toilet. But it's so hard to get to the toilets because they're at the other side of the dance floor. And you see someone that you want to dance with or someone sees you.

And I remember the second time I went to SoWeKiz, I decided, okay, I'm going to go in this situation. It was, wanted to get a drink, just some water, just to keep me going. After I decided that I wanted to get a drink, it took me an hour to move 10 meters to my bottle. So teleportation would be extremely useful just in that situation.

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All right, cool. Last one here for me to get through. Well, I always answer the last one. man. Yeah. OK. Wish you had this. I'm still going to get you to answer this. OK. So it says, finish this sentence. Kizomba is like, but with way more whatever. All right? So you're filling in the blank. Kizomba is like, whatever, but with way more.

Whatever. So I would say Ka   Kizomba is like heaven, but you can't, with way more what, mean heaven's heaven, right? So the only thing I can think of with this one is, I describe Ka   Kizomba sometimes as a moving meditation. And if we talk about meditation, not many people enjoy meditating because they find it hard to do. Like get fed up of it, whatever.

I would say Kizomba is like moving meditation with way more fun. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. So that's how I would describe it because you're in the moment and all that kind of stuff. So how would you answer that question, Charley? Missed the connection. OK.

There's a funny answer that I have to it, which I will share the funny answer. It's funny in my mind. I say, I like people enjoying whatever brings them joy. And I know that there's a lot of controversy between Kizomba and Urban Kiz, but I very much enjoy with my Urban Kiz dancing friends teasing them on how much I dislike the dance.

Okay. But again, what brings people joy is always good. So for that one, that version of my response, I would say Kizomba is like Urban Kiz, but with way more fun. Sorry. The other answer that comes about is Kizomba is like relationships, but with way more music.

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Because every single dance that you have is an opportunity for you to engage with another person and for you to understand that person, understand yourself and how you work together within a relationship. There are so many comparisons that could be drawn between the world of love and romance and friendships that could be understood through going to a dance class.

If that dance class was focused on how do you connect and make the experience enjoyable for the other person whilst also communicating what you need. Lovely. A lovely answer to all of those questions. Charley, we want to say thank you very much for taking your time again to spend with us here at Kizomba Conversations. It's been really, really great. Yeah, it's been great. And we're definitely going to be having you back because I think there's so much to talk about, so much to open up.

And I definitely want to hear about your experiences when you come back from Angola on that trip. looking forward to that. Bit jealous, but enjoy. Yeah. Don't be jealous. Just be motivated. Make it happen. Yes, I definitely will. But thank you once again. Thank you. As always, everybody, thank you very much for joining us on this episode of Kizomba Conversations. Please tell us what you think of the episode. And like I always say, keep dancing and we will see you on the dance floor.