In this 10th episode of Kizomba Conversations, we interview Frans and Sarah, a dance couple from Belgium. Frans and Sarah share their background and how they got into Kizomba.
They talk about their training with mentor José Nongala and his teaching philosophy. They discuss the importance of structured learning for beginners and the focus on details for advanced dancers. They also mention the importance of adapting to different learning styles and the benefits of dancing with beginners.
To connect with Frans and Sarah check them out on:
Instagram: @frans_sarah
Facebook: Frans & Sarah Kizombalove
Youtube: Frans & Sarah
Website: www.kizombalove.com
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Visit our website: https://kizombaconversations.com/
Connect with us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kizombaconversations/
TAKEAWAYS
Kizomba is deeply rooted in the culture of Congo.
Frans and Sarah began their Kizomba journey in 2008.
Teaching Kizomba requires a structured approach to cater to different learning styles.
Community plays a crucial role in the growth of Kizomba.
Balancing family life with dance is challenging but rewarding.
The Kizomba scene needs more female teachers to provide balance.
Marketing strategies are essential for the growth of Kizomba.
Criticism should be viewed as constructive feedback for improvement.
Self-confidence is key for both teachers and students in Kizomba.
The future of Kizomba relies on collaboration and community engagement.
SOUND BITES
"With beginners, we focus on the movement and traveling with ease."
"Advanced dancers come back to beginners' classes to focus on details and see the dance differently."
"Private classes help us go into details and find solutions for individual challenges."
"Everything we know today, if we had to learn it theoretically, it would not work. But it's by practicing and by having challenges that you evolve."
"There is a psychological part that in the beginning we don't have. And with time, you understand that there is psychology, those things of stages of learning and stuff like that."
"The roots and the codes are totally different. And so there is no clear... There is still this misunderstanding about what's Urban Kiz and in comparison with Kizomba."
"Yeah, just try guys just go for it."
"The most important skill for people to focus on to be good dancers is the frame."
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction to Kizomba Conversations
06:21 Frans and Sarah's Journey into Kizomba
12:29 Teaching Kizomba: Evolution and Philosophy
24:41 The Role of Community in Kizomba
34:22 Balancing Family Life and Dance
42:03 The Future of Kizomba and It's Evolution
01:47:41 Fun Segment: Quickfire Questions
TRANSCRIPT
Hello, Kizomba friends and welcome to the 10th episode of Kizomba Conversations. Yes, we made it to episode 10. We just want to say thank you very much for listening and watching the podcast. We really hope it's adding value to your Kizomba knowledge and your experience. Now, this is our second online episode and we're joined by a super dance couple all the way from Belgium. Now, this is a long episode, so you may want to split this into parts, but be sure to watch to the end.
this great knowledge and information shared from the wonderful Frans and Sarah. Enjoy the episode. Hello, Kizomba enthusiasts and welcome back to another episode of Kizomba conversations. As always, I'm your host Victor and today we're back with another amazing guest. Or shall I say guests because yes, we have two, two amazing teachers who are a dance couple. Let's welcome Frans and Sarah to the podcast. Hello, Frans and Sarah. How are you?
good and you? I am very very well so you guys are in Belgium correct? Yes yes yes and how is yeah how is sunny Belgium where is Belgium sunny should I say? Today's okay today's okay okay but the other days is yesterday was a bit awful but today sun good weather so you know Belgium sometimes you can go out it's raining and then
in the evening you have a sort of moment, so you never know. The funny thing is if you had asked me how is it in the UK, I everything you just said, it would have been exactly the same. Exactly the same. But anyway, enough about the weather. So we're here to talk to you and welcome you to this podcast and talk about Kizomba. And we just want to say thank you for making the time to come and join us on the podcast. That's the first thing.
as we, well, you may already know how we like to start the podcast is we like to get to know a bit about you. So we like to get to know a bit about our guests and you know, just a bit outside of Kizomba if you want to share anything. we want to know a bit about your background, who you are, all that kind of good stuff. So I'm going to hand over to you to introduce yourself to the, to us, especially the people that don't know you and are just coming to Kizomba for the first time. So who is Frans and Sarah?
Sarah (02:29.23)
And sometimes Frans will translate a little bit for me because my English is not so good. Okay, what can you say about us? Let's start from with the background. I will talk about me first. So I'm born in Kinshasa, Republic Democratic of Congo.
And so I grew up there until I was eight years old. And at that moment, was a bit of a war in Congo. And then we moved to Belgium with my family. We already had a link with Belgium because my family was already here. And so we were coming during the holidays and so on. But at that moment, when there was the war, my parents decided to bring us here in Belgium.
And so we began school. It was temporarily, the time that the war was away. since that time, I'm here. it was 28 years ago. So a long time ago. A long, time. my God. And so about the origins, yes, my parents are mixed. So I have Belgium.
Congo, Portugal and the Netherlands. for me... Wow, wow, wow. And all those places do Kizomba, right? Exactly. Exactly. Great. No, thank you. And then, yes, what about you? For me, it's a little bit the same, but instead of to come in Belgium, I grew up in Portugal. I was...
I think five years old and I grew up in Portugal. Then after I came here in Belgium, I was like 14 years old like this. Then I stayed here in Belgium. Yes. And I'm from Portugal. My father is from Portugal and my mother is from Congo. Yes. It's enough for me.
Victor (04:54.158)
So, Sarah, Portugal or Belgium, which one do you prefer? Yes, I'm from Portugal. Then, yes, Portugal is always in my heart. It's always in your heart. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I just wanted to find that out. No, okay. No. When I go there, I feel I'm at home. You're at home, yeah. Yeah, I can also add one precision from my side because
We have Congo from my father's side and my mother's side. But if I go to the grandmother and grandfather, they were from Angola. They moved in Congo and they stayed there, they lived there. So in the blood, let's say we have Angolan somewhere.
You have Angolan in the blood, which is where Kizomba is from. So, okay. Thank you for clarifying that. Okay. No, thank you. And thank you very much for sharing. So that's great. That's great. So people can get a little bit of information about you. So, all right, then. So talk to us a bit about Kizomba then. How did you get into Kizomba? And you know, how did you just how did you discover it in the first place? What was the story behind that?
Kizomba, let's say that already in the culture in Congo when we had our family party, birthday party and so on, our parents, they grew up there in Congo, but with some friends from Cape Verde, Portugal, Cabinda, yes, from Angola and so on. So we had...
already those music in our culture. So during the parties we were used to listen to Zouk music, also Kizomba of course, but that's it. That was about music. And then one day we saw one video on the internet. If I remember well, it was Tomas Keita. It was Tomas Keita dancing.
Victor (07:18.07)
Very old. He was doing a little show, a little demo and we were amazed. Wow. Look, they are dancing to On Kizomba music. On Kizomba music, the music that we enjoy and we like. And look, it's synchro. It's a choreo. You know, this was the first thing we had in mind when we saw that. And I don't know how, but the same amount, we were in...
at a family party and my cousin was with an Angolan, no, no, with a Capricorn, sorry. And they were dancing, doing some passadas and so on. And all the family, know, were, wow, look at them. Amazing. And we, actually, when we saw that, we said, wow, the dance is beautiful and so on. That's cool. That's a cool thing. And that's how we...
We were at that moment interested, just curious about the dance and just a bit after the classes began. And you were together and you wanted to do an activity? Yes, we wanted to do an extra activity. Together? Together and we decided to do for... then we found the Kizomba. Just by curiosity we typed Kizomba class in Belgium, Brussels.
And we discovered our flyer and it was actually the first Kizomba class given in Belgium. And so when we went there, we were the first students. And it was Jose Nongala, an Angolan teacher who started it here in Belgium. And so we were the students of Jose.
Yeah, no. So Jose, I know a little bit about his story. I know that you guys obviously follow his system and methodology, which is great. just going back a little bit. because when you were speaking, you were saying, we saw this, we saw that. my question I want to find out is how did you meet initially? We, it was the family. My sister knows the uncle.
Victor (09:35.966)
my uncle's, yes. And then I go with her in the family party and there I... And I was there too, so it was a barbecue. We are our wife there. I saw one beautiful lady, you know. And Frans Lucas Nils is like, my God. No, she was beautiful, of course. But we were there and we...
discussed a bit because we stayed there the whole day and I saw her already before that in the bus. the city. right, okay. Because we were taking sometimes the same bus to go to school and so on so I saw her already in that bus sometimes and at that party, that's you and so on and we began to speak a bit and that's how we exchanged the contact first and that's the first time we met.
And we still one year speaking. And for one year we spoke together and just friends, you know, for one year. And after one year we decided to be together and to be a couple. And that's how we started. And it was in 2006. Yeah, I was going to ask you when it was and long time ago and obviously all these years later, you guys are doing amazing things together.
And obviously you've got a bunch of children now, which we'll talk about a bit later. yeah, absolutely. So that was a one question friend, one question then. OK, just one question. So when you saw her on the bus, did you like her then? That's a good question. Actually, to be honest, be honest, she was beautiful and but not interested.
Further, just yes, a random person in the bus. And I was always with my team, my girls team, then I was not accessible. Yes, also. That's hard, yeah. I know. We know that's hard, man. We know. And we were very young. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't have this in mind. Sure. At moment, was playing football and...
Victor (12:01.022)
Every day I was on my training and it was sports football in my head and no time for other things. Amazing. It's always nice to find out about how people got together. thank you. That's lovely. So today we are releasing all the secrets. Yes. Absolutely. Get them all out. That's what we're here for. That's great. So, all right then. That's okay. So you meet, you talk, then you get together and then obviously you talked a bit about Kizomba then. So...
Obviously you've been teaching Kizomba for a long time. How many years have you been teaching Kizomba now, roughly would you say? So we began in 2008, the first class as a student. with the time, if you have to explain the things, at that moment there was nothing. No Kizomba party, no other Kizomba classes, no workshop.
Nothing, nothing, nothing. No person to see like, can... can have an inspiration. Nobody. So no videos. So there was nothing, nothing. And when we followed the class with José, we really enjoyed the dance and so on. But to be honest, we never saw a real Kizomba dance until...
It was, I think, nine months after we began. Jose organized a little Congress with Salsa Bachata and Kizomba. At that Congress, he did a demo. And for us, this was the first time we saw a real Kizomba dance, Kizomba demo, and we really enjoyed that. And I really wanted to have the video. And so I asked Jose, yes, can
Can I see the videos? Because I saw that he had recorded it. And then he said, wait first, because I have to look first for someone who will put a logo on the video and so on. But I don't have so many time now. But after, will send the video. will send the video. And at that moment, I say, but if you want, I can do it. I can put the logo on your video, because I touch a bit. I edit a bit some videos and so on. So I can maybe help you with that.
Victor (14:22.976)
And he OK, why not? And I did it. I put a video, a little video editing and so on. And then he saw it and said, it's amazing. You know what? I'm thinking, because we need promotion, material and so on. Do you want to join the team? So I will train you. You will have everything for free and so on. And I said, hmm. And you were a student. And then we say, OK, we don't have to pay the card.
Absolutely, yes. Why not? Why not? And that's how I joined first the Kizombalove Academy dance school. And at that moment, so I was going everywhere, everywhere, everywhere Jose was, to take pictures, videos and stuff like that. And the fact we were with him everywhere is also a way of learning, learning by watching.
And so the dance evolved and there were demands in France, in the Netherlands and so on. And José also needed an assistant. And so he asked Sarah to help him. And so Sarah began to give some classes with José at that time. And because we were with him all the time,
At a certain moment, he asked us to do a little competition. You know, there was at that moment this Africa Dancer competition worldwide. You organized something for Belgium, actually for what's for the Benelux, Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg. And you say, yes, I have one couple of Luxembourg, one couple of the Netherlands, but I have nobody for Belgium. And you, my first students, you were there always with me.
Can you please participate? Just to participate is not to win, you know. Just to have one person in Belgium. To have one representative and so on. And at that moment, I asked Sarah and we look at each other and we say, no, no, no, not us. We are going to make a dance in front of people. No, no, no, it's not us because... we are a bit shy from the... You know, character.
Victor (16:48.91)
We were shy, very shy. And we worked on this with the time. before it was really complicated to speak in front of people and so on. And we worked on it. So we were shy. So doing a competition was not our thing, but I don't know how he has convinced us. And so we took part with that competition and we won. And we won and it was in 2011.
When we want that, immediately say, but you have potential. Do you want to join the team as assistants? Because we need now to give some workshop classes a bit everywhere. There are demand and we have to, as an academy, have to promote and protect the Angolan culture and so on. so at that moment, one more time.
us giving class in front of people. No, no, no. I don't know how we did that, but we finished to join the team. So we were trained by José and we began to give our first classes by replacing him because I know today that it was on purpose, but sometimes we were in the classes and you saw, you know what? Take the mic.
I come, come, I come quickly and he went away for minutes. And I'm like this in front of the people, my God. This is the beginning, little by little. And then at a certain moment, we were more and more comfortable. And then in 2011, it was our first class, France and Sarah's classes. That's nice. So it was at that moment that we So he was smart in what he was doing, because he wanted you to get out there, overcome the shyness and just develop yourself.
Very good, very clever as well. So can you tell us a little bit more about José then? His dance training philosophy, know, maybe a bit about what you learned from him, just for the people that don't necessarily know him. My English is bad. Try, try. No, it's complicated. I will complete. You will complete me. José is first of all, he's an Angolan.
Victor (19:05.098)
And he grew up there in Angola and then he moved in Belgium. He's an auto -deduct, so he learned by himself. He reads a lot of books and stuff like that. I think he speaks six or seven languages. I think it's six. And fluent and very, very well. He's very, very clever. And he built...
his own methodology because he had already at that time this vision of saying okay you know there is nothing but the Kizomba will become very popular and we will transmit it all around the world and so on so he had already this vision he was not he was not wrong he saw that one and then when he saw us what was very
What is very particular with José is that he really put the focus on us and not on him. He wanted to work on the background and to let us like an image for the academy. And so he already, he was already saying that I don't have to be visible. You are the...
the next generation. So when he was printing a roll -up for a banner, it was with our heads. And when he was giving class, he was with this roll -up with our heads. So he really wanted to push us in that scene. And we don't see that everywhere. Most of the time, the people are really concentrated on themselves. But he had really this philosophy of saying, you know, I will invest on you. And after that, our work
will stay long because even he was saying that when I will take my retirement and so on they will speak about Kizomba and so on. So he already had this philosophy and what's also good with José is that he's not acting with emotion. So he will always have this rational part where he will look for scientific information and stuff like that.
Victor (21:27.926)
So he's very academic and also when we were organizing events, parties and stuff like that, always with contracts, things like that. So everything is professional with José. And he wanted to bring Kizomba in the level of a salon. Yes, saloon, ballroom dances. Okay. And...
And for that he makes rules in the way he... He builds his methodology with some guidelines and rules to respect to come close to these ballroom dances where everything is structured and so on and can be transmitted because originally Kizomba, samba is transmitted by the visual, by watching and...
and by dancing at the party and so on, but not academically given. And today things are changing a bit because more and more people begin to give classes in a certain way, with a certain method and so on. things are becoming... He came here in Belgium and he saw I cannot transmit this dance by watching because here in Europe...
people don't learn in the same way like in Africa. And you say, OK, I have to find a way of giving that to people. for that, start thinking about ballroom dances. And by this way, you can touch everybody. Because the person who are visual, you will give them something. The person who are auditory, you can explain them very well the things. And the people
who need to feel work in aesthetic, they will also enjoy your class. And so you can touch everybody because sometimes just by giving class visually, will, of course, touch the people who are visual. They will learn very well and so on. And you will be the best teacher for them. But someone who is not visual, maybe you will say about him, it's not for you. And actually, no, it's not about that. It's because
Victor (23:47.938)
We have to find another way to communicate well and transmit. So you're covering all the different learning styles basically for everybody. And a good teacher for us is a teacher who can adapt. Of course, when we will go to Africa, we will give a class visual. When we go to Germany, we need to explain things very well. And so it will depend on your class, your public and so on. And if you can adapt yourself,
as a teacher then you have the skills of being a good teacher. Absolutely, now this is great. so for you in Belgium then and your academy, it's really what I'm hearing is more of a systematic approach, everything is structured, so that's how you develop your dances. Is that correct? Actually we have two modes. We will talk about modes.
The first mode is a structured way of approaching the student and so that way you will learn the technique of doing a step. And you don't lose them in the first class. And when they master the technique, you have to go in another mode that we call freestyle, where they will apply the technique in the dance without counting, reproducing by heart what they It's just visual.
If I have to give an example, if we have to execute one structure, Saida for instance, we will build it in a way where we can say that everybody will start in the same position, execute the technique with the hand at that moment precisely, on three, on four, on two, and so on. And so to transmit, it will be structured for your class. And you can easily detect where it's not a
executed well and so on and correct very quickly. When they master it, then we will say, OK, now you know what, we will go now in the dance mode, the freestyle mode. You put music. You put music, they dance, they practice. And when you give a signal, when you will say go, for instance, they executed it. And so they will not count anymore, but they are focusing on executing when you give the signal. And so that approach is
Victor (26:05.144)
Helping them to learn fast, but at the same way to be good dancer by improvising and not executing by heart what they've learned in the workshop, for instance. And to understand what they are doing with the robot. Yeah. No, that's great. And in terms of your level of beginners to advanced teaching, is there anything specific that you do? So you've just talked about some of the things that you do in the structure there.
Is there anything specific for beginners that you focus on and is there anything specific that you focus on for advanced dancers? With beginners?
What do we focus with the dancers? The movement.
to travel a bit easier. Okay. Okay. And then the advanced? that the same? The advanced, good things. So the advanced, it will be more on the details. So we have a lot of advanced dancers coming back in our beginners class because now that they have another, that they have learned and they
master a bit some techniques, they can have another view on how they will receive the information. So when they come back in the beginners class, they see it in another way. And sometimes they say, wow, the class was so rich, I've learned so many things today. And maybe there is another beginner just near them, a real beginner, but you will not see the class the same way. It's because when we evolve, we need to have
Victor (28:12.106)
this capacity of receiving the things and in the beginning we want the things very fast. We just want steps and to make a show and we don't see these little things like the weight transfer. For me it's the most important in Kizomba. yes, but it's after when you experiment everything then you say okay now I can go back and then to start to learn basic things. Yes actually we have
You know there are four stages of learning. Yes. And in the first stage, you are not aware that you don't know the things. You know these Kizomba things should be easy. You're not aware. Visual, you say, okay, Kizomba is easy. And then you try maybe, and then you become aware that you don't know. And this is an important phase because when you are aware that you don't know, you can now...
look for the information, begin to learn and so on. On the third phase, you... So at that phase, you need to learn things properly. And if you have a teacher who can explain you the things very well and so on, you will have a good basis on what will work for many years, but you need this good basis in the beginning. And then you will reach the third phase where you are aware that you know now. And at that phase,
What we see in the scene is that a lot of people are blocked on that face. They are aware that they know. So now that I know, what's next? What's next? What's next? What's next? And there is a fourth stage where you have to go. I'm not aware anymore that I know. And so at that stage...
the information goes to your unconscious part and you execute naturally the things. You will not think about doing the steps and so on. You can easily improvise, focus on the music and answer to the music and so on. But you will not think about how I will do my step. And so it's like learning to drive. In the beginning you are not aware and then how I have to do, you will learn the things. Now you know how to change your gear and so on.
Victor (30:36.652)
But in the first time that you change your gear, if I speak to you at that moment and I say focus on the world, it's too much info. So it's not because you know how to do it that you master it. Then you have to practice, practice, practice until it becomes unconscious. And when it's unconscious, you don't think about changing your gear anymore. You can speak, can focus on the world and so on. And that's the same with the dance. And when they advance, they reach that level where they know that they know.
And those who want to go to the, don't know anymore that I know, they will come back in my beginner's class and they will really focus on the little detail and so on. And they will not, and they will see the dance differently. And when you reach that level, then there is this to learn. That's after lovely. I love everything you just said. Totally agree that I think it's
think we call it maybe the unconscious competence model or something like that, what you were explaining about getting to the full stage. So I totally understand that. I totally understand. I've said it before, you know, I'm never, well, I'm not an advanced dancer, but I'm never afraid of going to a beginner's class to learn something. I'm always happy to do that. And I think that more people should have that in their mindset as well, because like you say, it helps you grow and helps you develop even better. So.
Lots of thinking there people you're listening here You know you have the the beginners class of course and you It's you have to do two things or you don't enjoy Or you enjoy doing it. You will maybe not enjoy by saying you know what? The follower is not following well or the leader is not leading well and so on or you can have the
contrary, say, wow, now how can I do to make my dance more comfortable for my partner? Even if the leading is not perfect, the following is not perfect, what can I do? What can I change to make it better? And when you are in this mood, you are ready to receive, learn a lot of things. So this is one way of improving. And another way is also private classes, trainings and stuff like that.
Victor (32:57.822)
In those classes we really go into details and we have a of teachers coming for instance to learn in private those details. And even for me, I really like to dance with beginners because if she arrives to follow this beginner
For me, it's a good challenge for me. It's because I can adapt myself to a beginner person or someone who is not leading perfectly. Then for me, this is a challenge for me. And if I can dance with him, then with the expert, I can really follow easily. Yes, this is my challenge always.
That's great to hear as well. think people just need to understand that leading and following are different skills and you it's you got to just try everything basically. So it's nice to hear that teachers want to dance at beginnings as well people. you're safe out there. It's all good. Yes, I learn. I I learn a lot with beginners. Really. So yeah, it's great. It's great to hear. So all right, then building on this then because we've just spoken about, you know, the importance of learning, but then for yourselves,
as teachers, how has your teaching style evolved over the years then? What would you say in terms of your development? How has it grown? For me, it was more with the private classes because when someone comes in the private, you have experience. The experience, you have a lot of experience, then you
you meet many cases, then you learn always something. And the private class is really, you can go on the details and you have someone who sometimes tell you, you say, go forward with your right foot and he cannot. And you say, okay, just step. And he say, I cannot. I say, okay, my God.
Victor (35:19.15)
This is a challenge. I'm like, okay, thank you for this challenge. I have to find how to help you. Sometimes you have really, when someone wants to come in the private class, sometimes it's really they want to go into details. And then, yes, then you have to find the solution because he cannot go at home without the solution.
Yes, and for me is really the private classes when I am with this person one time I was with one person and of my student. I'm like, okay Let's start the visual part. Look at me do like me. He cannot I say okay Next time I explain you go one time forward with your last food then you go back then you do this No, okay. Okay. I go with you
Try with me, I will guide you in this movement. I try, he do a little bit and then no. And I say, my God. And I cannot show him then I don't know how to do it. Then I was looking around of me and then I see the board of the children, know, the board, things to write on.
And so I look at this, I say, OK, then I took the thing to write on the board, like in the school. Marker, marker. Yes. And then I saw that and I said, OK, let's draw on the ground. So she drew circles. like first step is here, second step is there. Then he has to step on this thing. And I saw, OK, it's working.
Okay, then let's work like this with you to start. Because he was nothing, no visual, no kinaesthesia, no nothing. Okay? Then like this, it's okay, it's a challenge for me. Then I found something, then I know. If I have again this case, I know how to explain. And this is the beginning and after that, of course, now this student, for instance, dance perfectly well. He can visually reproduce something, he can hear but...
Victor (37:41.466)
you have to first speak the same language with him and when he can understand you, can begin to learn him how to go in other directions. And that's how the private classes helped us to become more sharp explanations and so on. In the beginning, I think it was more about steps.
This is the first Even us, we wanted to make steps. in the beginning it's like this. Everybody does, everybody does. And then with the time, you change and the focus goes more on the basic way of executing the thing on the technique. And to be comfortable. To be comfortable in your dance and so the explanation changes also, the way of teaching changes. And then there was a moment where we found that...
Maybe it's too academic, you know, we have to put more fun and so on. And so more music. And so you evolve and you become more more more more more expert in your in your fields by with the time with the experience. I think everything we know today, if we had to learn it theoretically, it would not work. But it's by practicing and by having challenges that you evolve. And today, I think we are
lot of people say that, that we have a very pedagogic and academic way of approaching and that when they follow us, even in private class, classes and so on, everything is clear and logic and easy to understand. And I think this is our strong today because we were beginners and we had to learn how to do things properly. And so today we have to explain it to other beginners.
But with all those times of experience and the thousands of private classes that we gave and so on, we feel now very well and very good in the way of giving classes, for instance. And you evolve always because if you took us two years ago, four years ago, five years ago, we are not the same. So we evolve and I know that in one year we will be different.
Victor (40:06.594)
Yeah, no, that's amazing again to hear and the challenges of different people. You know what you were talking about, Sarah, the challenges of different people when they just don't get it. You have to speak their language, but all of that is making you become a better teacher, right? Better understanding, better speaking or showing them what to do. It's all development as well. So yeah, very, very interesting. Okay. That's cool. That's cool. Yeah.
I think there is a psychological part that in the beginning we don't have. And with the time you understand that there is psychology, those things of stages of learning and stuff like that, you become aware of that with the time. And so at the class, the people who come, you automatically, naturally, you will touch them, not only with your dance.
the way you speak with them, the way you act with them, because there is this psychology part that our teachers also have to have, the word that you're using, and people come to learn, other people come just to enjoy and have fun, other people come to socialize, and you have to be aware of that. Because if your class is, you have to do like this, or no, it's not correct, it's not like this, the person who come to have fun, you will not touch him, for instance. And so there is...
lot of dimension when you want to become a teacher that you need to learn in by doing. Yeah, this is interesting to know because you one of the reasons why we put the podcast on is for people to learn this kind of stuff, especially if someone's interested in becoming a teacher. And these are the kind of things that you're to have to prepare yourself for, be aware of as well. So this is this is great. This is great. All right, so I want to move it slightly to just a question about the community. So
Before and after Covid.
Victor (42:31.254)
Yes, we have before COVID and after. Okay. Okay.
Victor (42:40.236)
We saw how the scene has evolved from the beginning. In the beginning, there was no scene. We were going with some CDs at a party, Bachata party, asking the DJ, can you please put two or three songs of Kizomba? And we were waiting until the end of the party. And then he put this in the end. then you see two couples in the middle of the Last song, last song. Yes, exactly.
So this was the beginning. Then we began to give classes with Jose everywhere in Belgium. Then we had the chance to go to the Netherlands. And the Netherlands is just near Belgium and it's a country very known for the level of dances, salsa, bachata and so on. And so we had the chance to give classes in big salsa dance schools there. And so we also create a
a community of Kizomba dancers and this community were unified. So when we were organizing something in Belgium, people were not afraid to come from the Netherlands to our parties, for instance, or where we were going to give a workshop in the Netherlands, people from Belgium were also coming with us and so on. We had a very unified scene and we were at that moment in the beginning, beginning.
the only Kizomba school. Then there was another school giving Kizomba that came in Belgium. And until today, for Brussels, for instance, we had the two Kizomba schools. At that moment, there was no Urban Kiz and stuff like that. And with the time, 2012, 2013, we began to see different things.
those salsa dance school, bachata dance school, tango dance school, who saw the potential of Kizomba, who already had maybe 200 of students dancing salsa bachata, say how it should not be complicated. They didn't know that they don't know. But hey, okay, you know what, we'll look some videos and we'll begin to give some workshops and stuff like that. All people are enjoying, you know what, let's give
Victor (45:07.19)
some Kizomba classes, but we know training, just looking some videos and so on. And that's how little by little the dance changed. And we were seeing things where we say, in Angola they don't do it. you know, this is not African culture. it looks different. But there was no separation at that moment, Urban Kizomba.
With the time, more and more people began to dance in another way and that's where they decided to put a name on it. To say, know what, they were talking about French Kizomba in the beginning, Kizomba 2 .0, Kizomba Bio. There is many things. Many things, you know.
to make the difference between the dances. But at a certain moment they say, you know what, we will call it Urban Kiz, or what you're doing here, and Kizomba, so we can make the difference. Because when someone goes to a Kizomba party or Kizomba class, he has to know where he goes and what he will receive. And at that moment, it was not clear, because it was very confusing. And that's why they decide to make the difference between those two.
dances to styles. And today, for instance, the Sen forgets what happened and why they began to say Urban Kiz and Kizomba. Because when you say Urban Kiz and Kizomba, why two different names? Because there is something different. So if it's something different, today,
We have again this confusion of saying, I'm a Kizomba teacher. I have a Kizomba community. But what you do is not dancing on Kizomba music, is not giving Kizomba classes, what we call Kizomba classes. So they give Urban Kiz classes, Urban Kiz workshop. They dance on other music that are not Kizomba, but they consider themselves as Kizomba artists. And so there's still this confusion on the scene.
Victor (47:30.252)
Because for some people, the Kizomba artist and Urban Kiz is just a style. And for other artists and other teachers, it's two different dances. Because the roots and the codes are totally different. And so there is no clear...
There is still this misunderstanding about what's Urban Kiz in comparison with Kizomba. Is it different or is it Kizomba with the style? For my part, this is my personal opinion, it's like two different dances because the codes today are two different. In the beginning, we had some similarities because the first Urban Kiz teacher, they learned Kizomba. they had the They were dancing Kizomba or Semba.
So they had a base and then they evolve and they introduce other things that were linked to Urban Kiz and so on. And then because it changed too much, they call it Urban Kiz. But the new generation of Urban Kiz teacher, most of them, they don't learn, they don't have the base of Kizomba. And so they immediately learn steps of Urban Kiz and so on with the code of Urban Kiz that are different from Kizomba. And so that's why for my personal opinion,
It's two different dances. And I think it's much clearer for the people to say, I'm giving an Urban Kiz class, or you will come to my Urban Kiz party, or I'm organizing an Urban Kiz festival. You will have 90 % of Urban Kiz teachers and maybe 10 % of Kizomba teachers. But it's clear for the people because today when you go to a festival, if you have 90 % of Urban Kiz teachers and you are the only one giving Kizomba,
And just before the student did 20 classes where the other teachers say the contrary of you, it's like you are not giving something that they can trust, you know? And this is not good for the community. But when we make the difference, it's good. So the scene has evolved. The community has evolved. And after COVID, the first generation of dancers, they changed a bit. This is the feeling that I have because
Victor (49:50.794)
All our community were following us in everything we were doing, shows, videos, workshop, bootcamp, if we travel, we go to festivals, they were coming. But today, this generation is normal because after three years of COVID and so on, the interest has changed. And they just come sometimes to a party, to little practice, but they will not...
be involved as much as they were before COVID. And so there is another generation after COVID that started from scratch and that is raised now and we are building this community now and it will become the same as just before COVID. So it's just that they began from the beginning. So it will be time to create another big community. And we have many motivated people. Yes, motivated students.
Now we feel that feeling that we had before where the people really want to learn more, to be aware about everything, about Kizomba and so on. we, because this new generation that's far from scratch, they are now reaching that level of, I know that I know, and now I want to become expert. So they want now everything. that is good. No, no, interesting. Again, it's interesting to find out how
Well, everything you talking about around Urban Kiz and obviously how that's impacted and changed over time. Okay. Very, very interesting. then, so then yourselves, you, you, you arrange, you have festivals and you arrange festivals yourselves. Correct. We don't call it festival. There are, there are a lot of festivals in Belgium organized by a lot of people also coming from abroad, from France.
and so on and lot of those festivals called Kizomba festival is mostly orientated Urban Kiz. Sure but I think you have a couple that you do, I think I've seen a couple that you do some festivals, some very small intimate gatherings maybe. What we organize, what we do is not
Victor (52:14.434)
We don't call it festival. It's more like a weekend or a weekender. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, sure. Talk to us about your weekend is basically. Yeah. It will be a party. It will be a party where we will organize workshop before, but special parties, you know, where, for instance, our concept, we have a concept chill and Kizomba. So like the name say, you can come to chill, just enjoy, have a good moment and also dance Kizomba.
And so the concept is you come for the whole day and everything is included inside. You have food, barbecue, like you want, drinks for free and so on. And there is a pool, there is a cinema room, there is a snooker, a lot of things in a great, great place. And the people, even if they don't dance, they will come and they will enjoy and they will discover Kizomba that way.
because they are there with some friends. And during all the day, we have some DJs putting Kizomba at this event. And in the evening, we make a little concert. The last time, we broke to Mikas Cabral, who came and did a great show. And at that event, we see a lot of artists from France, from the Netherlands, from Luxembourg coming just to enjoy. So they come and...
And this is what we are organizing sometimes during the year, two times per year like this. And we have a monthly event also, one more time for community. So they have one party to practice. And so it's a free event, for instance, and they can come from eight o 'clock until one o 'clock. They dance, dance, dance. And we try to bring this little family atmosphere.
And so we will put the music bar ourselves and so on. We have some DJs in our team because we have a big team. You probably know some of those artists, Stefan, Sonja, Josekila and so on. So this family atmosphere is something very important for us because it's the spirit of Kizomba. Yeah, absolutely. It's party, isn't it? And a family vibe.
Victor (54:35.542)
Okay, so not a festival. There's plenty of festivals that happen. But for you specifically, I was talking about it's a chill out, chill out, relax and dance maybe. Yeah. When's the next one? Because I think I'm coming. Please tell me. me know. We don't have a date yet for the next chill and Kizomba. We have to see with the fun. The fun from our team who is in charge of organizing this. Yes. The next Kizomba of party.
or the monthly party is for instance in two days. So the 6th of July. At the time of this recording in two days? We also have another one the 10th of August and it will be the same date with my birthday. it can be cool. And we will also organize the 18th anniversary of our academy.
wow. That's amazing. Congratulations. That's good. So yes, our baby now is adult. Well, well, we're moving on nicely into my next questions then because this is going to be around you and your personal life and your personal and professional life. All right. So you have children. I was think I was saying to Sarah at the beginning last time I saw you.
was a long time ago, but the last time I saw you in person, you were pregnant. remind me of how many children you have now. Now we have a tree and the twins they have twins they have four years and the last one I think 18 months like this. Wow. Yeah. So that's fantastic. How do you how do you manage your professional dancing lives, you know, with
everything that's going on, the children, you know, how do you fit it all in? Do they like dancing as well? You know, talk to us about being Kizomba teachers and dancers and having a quite a large family. How does it work? Yes, it's very, it's, yes, it's very complicated because in the beginning, but I was pregnant and then I didn't know that it was two then
Victor (56:53.356)
I was like, okay, no problem. I have one baby. saw the other one or two teachers doing that to go to the festival with the babies. Just one, it's not a problem. And then they told me, no, there is two babies. I was like, my God, this changed everything in my program. Then, yes, it's for that. For me, it came in the good time because it was just after it was COVID when I...
When I gave birth, it was really the first COVID and then it was good because we were at home. We could stay at home with them. Yes, and he can also stay at home with me and to help me. Then it was good. The good time for me because if it was another time, no, it's really I was like, thank you God because it was good. Then
Then yes, then we had the second one and the third one. And then it was, yes, I feel it's a rock. Then what I can say, yes, you have just to be more organized because when you go to the festivals, you have to plan how to let your babies with how...
how to manage it. But yes, now we can do it. have a They can help us. Then it's cool. In the beginning, it was the good moment because if we had to go, it would be complicated with the twins. But now that they are four years old, they have grown up, they can stay with the family without problem. And the last one is 18 months, so nearly two years.
It's also a good moment where she can play by herself and so on. now we travel and just question of organization. We see where we let them. Sometimes it can happen that we come with the last one. We already travel two times with her and she will enjoy traveling and she's partying also like a mother.
Victor (59:17.87)
But now it's more easy to manage the festival part. The worst part is over. Yes, the worst moment is already past. Now the weekly classes, we have someone who helps us with the family. They just stay here so we put the children. He doesn't live so far. Then after work he came here.
And then we can go to the class to give class and then we come back and then he picked him to bring him back at home. So this is how we manage the organization about that. yes, it's okay. It's okay. That's good. So anybody listening who is a dance couple or you know, about to have babies, is the advice that you should be listening to. Just organize yourself well.
Yes, you have also to have the capacity to change your mood. Yes, you need to be able to adapt. Because if you can adapt yourself to the new situation, then it will not be a problem. But if you think you will have the same life as before, and you wait for that moment, you will not live anymore.
She just to the music of a car.
Already I'm like, okay. Yeah, they really like dance and sing also. Well, it's in the blood, right? So it's a family thing. They're going to be some amazing dancers when they get older. We're going to be looking out for them. I broke the twins one time at the weekly classes and one of them was too shy and the other one just came and
Victor (01:01:40.674)
and danced with me in front of everybody. And then everybody were uploading and so on. And then she went back like she's shy. And then she came to say, I want to do it again. so yeah, that's great. Okay, lots of planning and then with all the planning then I mean, how, how do you make time for yourselves that in terms of your
Well, I guess it is planning. guess it is planning. the point I'm asking is how do you stay motivated and how are you able to keep it fresh and enjoy your personal practice and growth in dancing? That's a very good question. To stay motivated, is that How to stay motivated but also to take time for us.
To take time for us, we... Like now?
We are together, working together, doing this podcast with you together. This is a good time for us. So we don't necessarily need one month of holiday to say, we have taken time, but we are conscious that we have the chance to do a passion together, that we work together, we give class together. It's not like
she's giving class with another one or I'm giving class with another assistant and we are not together, I go alone in a festival. No, we are together. So this time we're living now is unique. Yes, because not every couple can say, you know, we can spend the time together and so on. So yes, that's true. We're working sometimes, but we try to enjoy the moment and say, you know what, because we're enjoying what we are doing, we don't need to...
Victor (01:03:40.684)
have one month of our day. Of course we will take some time, one weekend, one week and so on. But it's not a necessity. We plan it when we want and most important is that we can also be close to our children. So our children are with us. So sometimes at our parties, if it's a party that doesn't finish too late and we can bring our children with us.
play for the children and it's an open air event from time there with us and we are also conscious that this is unique. They can see their parents doing a passion and impacting people and so on. So all those moments are unique, particular. This is about us, how we can recharge our batteries. But also because before, what I say always is before we
we start a long time together. I was, I think, 16 years old. Then we had this time to be together, just him and me. To grow together. together, to learn things together. The time for us too, we had many times, okay? Then when the teachers came, for me it was really the good time because if I had...
I had kids before, for me I was like... He was not mature enough. Today it's alright. Okay, now I changed a little bit. Then yes, for me it was a good time to have kids before, for me it was not possible because I had... In my head I was not... Yes, then for me, yes, we had time for this, but sometimes you don't need...
a holiday to take them together. Sometimes we just go to the spa together, just one moment together, then it's okay, it's enough. We can go back with our children. We go also in the festivals, sometimes we stay a bit longer. We try to adapt the small spaces for us, but we don't need... Because if I go to the holidays,
Victor (01:06:07.614)
alone with him, I'm like, no, I want to do this with my children. Then I'm with him, but I'm thinking with my children. Yes, yes, for me it's... Now in this moment, we want to... to... enjoy... to enjoy moments together with the children. Yes, we try to really...
enjoy every moment with the children when we are together and so on. we have to be conscious about this change because what gives us the motivation is to say, you know, we started from nothing. We have to change to be what we are today, to have evolved. And it's an opportunity. It's a blessing. so the fact that we are conscious about that.
give us the motivation to continue and to say, you know, we have impacted people when we receive also feedback, comments from people, from fans, people after a class who say, you have impacted me so much that she's crying when she's talking with you. Those moments are also unique. And so to see the effect that you can bring to the people and the value you bring to them.
This is our motivation. If someone, I see someone starting from nothing like this student where we had to draw on the ground and so on and I see today he's traveling alone, he goes to festivals and he's enjoying, I say wow, look at the work he thanks to what we have given to him, so this is our motivation for us. The second motivation also, we have the children and everything, then it's also my team.
Because after I had one team before the COVID, then we stay friends. for the Kizomba, they have family now. They changed. They don't continue anymore, Kizomba. Then we still just France, me and Stefan. And really on Kizomba doing every day. Then we say, OK, we need another.
Victor (01:08:32.864)
motivation and it came in the good time because two of our team they came well it's a long time but I wanted to be with you in your team blah blah and we spoke together and it was okay let's come do it together then now we have also Sonia she came from Kenya but we met there before then when she came to live here in Belgium I say okay let's work together then we can work together now then yes
All of the person of my team, give me also energy because I know now before I was like, okay, I can stop now a little bit, but now they are there and they, need them and they need me also to continue. cannot stop like this. Then my team also, they, they give me a lot of energy. Yes. And we, yes, we love them. No, that's fantastic. Everything is, it's, it's amazing to hear. So.
That's lovely. what then do you enjoy most about dancing together as a couple? So you mentioned some nice things here just now about your team and you know, the impact that you want to have, but for you two together, because we obviously like seeing you perform. We like seeing you at festivals or wherever you go around, you know, dancing on YouTube, whatever it might be. But for you together as a couple,
What would you say that you enjoyed most about dancing together? Yes, I've seen the Avengers, yes. Maria and Arnold. And I think those moments are the best moments we had. Also when we participated in Africa Dançaar, we came to the UK in 2014 to participate in the worldwide competition of Kizomba and we won.
in UK. Those feelings after that you have worked on a show and that you produce it and then you have the results, that's the best feeling. Of course it's a work and it's uncomfortable while you're working because we are also a couple. So if I have to work with another person, I think on some aspects it would be easier.
Victor (01:10:56.814)
But because we are couples sometimes we don't agree on things. I get it, get it, yeah. So, but at the end we can put our egos on the side and with personal development we can also understand the needs of each other. So okay, what are my needs when I'm working on the show? I need that, I understand what happened at every moment and I need to practice with the...
high level of energy. Okay, her need is not the same. need is, I just need to understand what I have to do, but I don't want a high energy. Otherwise I will... Because I'm visual. Sometimes I can stay like this. I'm training on my head and then I have to see everything I have to do. Then I see everything, my show, start like this, I finish like that. I put music and I'm doing the show in my head.
For me, it's enough. And maybe I would write the ideas on the paper. so it's not the same way. Front is more, I have to write, then we have to do this. And I'm like, my God, OK, now I understand. He's like this, I'm like that. Then we... So we adapt each other. And so the fact that while dancing, while teaching, we evolve as person.
Victor (01:12:22.168)
This is what I really enjoy the most and I take from this journey. The shows, the students that are performing because we filmed them and so on and it's a great video to share with everyone. We have good comments, good feedback. This is a blessing. For me, it's the outcome of the work we do together that...
that I can appreciate the most of being together now. It's not that we are not a good example about trainings, for instance. We never dance alone at home, train. No. You don't do that? No. well. OK.
It can happen one time, okay, just calm, want to begin my day in a good way. But it's because also we give class, we give a demo. Yes, of course. We're always busy. So on the side of that, we will not say, okay, you know what, we have to train for 30 minutes or one hour. But when we go to the festivals and some... Yes, when we go to the festival, we are in the Kizomba mood, then there we know we dance together and so on. But at home, yes.
Yeah, very, very insightful. Very, very insightful. So Sarah, is it similar to what Frans was saying then in terms of what you enjoy about Darsic? Yes, Okay. That's excellent. I like this challenge to make a show, stress before the show. then after, and always when I came to do a show, I have always a little problem. It's, I forget everything. A little problem.
Yes, always when I come like this... How do I have to start? I'm like, always like, my god, I don't know That's not little, that's not little. Even in the show we did many times, but always when I came, when I see the pubic, I forget everything. But when they say, front and Sarah, this activates something, then I'm like, okay. I know what's going on. That's interesting to hear, yeah.
Victor (01:14:42.154)
Okay, cool, cool. So listen, just a couple more questions for you both. And these these ones are specific. So the individual so one's gonna be for you friends, the one's gonna be for you, Sarah, right? So, Sarah, I'm start with you. And this is just a I mean, I think you may have answered it already a little bit before earlier. But I wanted to just touch on something that, you know, people in the Kizomba space, sometimes people go out
And you know, people sometimes they might get a little bit intimidated with people, whether they want to ask somebody to dance or, you know, talk to someone or whatever it might be. But when it comes to teachers, especially if you have someone who is a little bit intimidated and to ask a teacher to dance, what advice would you give to that particular man if they're feeling that way?
So if they're a little bit scared or intimidated about asking a teacher to dance with them, what would you say to them? I have always this in my life. Yes, that's why I'm asking. students, they, yes, to dance with me, even with me, they are my students, I see them always. Then when we are in the party, they can, there is someone who dance with me, but the other one, they are like, okay, I cannot dance with her because I have to. Sometimes,
Guys, need to feel like they are good before to dance with the teacher. But for the girls, it's different. We always want to dance with the best dancer. It's contrary. For the guys, they are like, okay, let's dance with the simple girl. Don't go to the teacher because it's too much stress for them. But for me,
What guys have to know is the teacher they can better adapt their dance to them. Okay? And sometimes we are not always thinking about, he did me this thing, okay, you have to correct this now. When I'm teaching, I'm concentrated, I can see everything. Okay? My eyes see the dance in the other way. But when I'm dancing in the social, I forget everything. And there I'm really...
Victor (01:17:06.498)
there to enjoy even you are beginners even you don't get me very well no problem my challenge is there I have to follow you okay this is for me then for the other teachers sometimes sometimes I know there is a teach girls teachers that they come on there and some accessible yeah they're not
They are not accessible. In the way they are in the non -verbal way. They are not accessible. are like, normal. And you cannot go. You don't know if you can or not. But for me, just try. OK, don't be afraid. Normally, teachers, we don't say no like this. OK, because we know it's difficult to take
The courage. The courage to invite us, I know. Then even I have to do something, then I tell you, OK, one moment I have to do something, I will come back and to invite you in my turn. OK, then for four guys don't. Yes, just go. Just try. Just try. And normally teachers can dance, can adapt themselves better than than the other students. And you can learn also more.
and during your dance. That is great. That's great. And there's going to be so many men thinking, that's so amazing. They're going to be very happy with that answer, Sarah. So thank you. They just have to try. the girls, she's like, no verbal, you cannot go, but just try. Maybe she's just thinking like this. And then we will invite her. But she's like, OK, thank you. then just try. Exactly.
Yeah, just try guys just go for it. Okay, Frans, the same question to you. So advice given to you know, a follower or a female if she's a little bit intimidated. Yes. To dance.
Victor (01:19:19.156)
Actually, this is an interesting topic because we are talking about it in our classes also with our students. You will have those followers who will invite you and they will not think one second, can I invite him or not, they will come. And even if at that moment you're drinking, you're resting, whatever you want to do, they will come.
And even if you are not in the middle of the area, you are outside of the room because maybe it was too hot and you went out to breathe some air, they will come and take you there. there are those kind of followers. And of course, they enjoy and they want to dance as much as possible. Sometimes with the teachers, sometimes with everybody. So that's good. And then there are the other followers who are waiting that
we invite them. And sometimes I think it's about culture because in Africa, in Congo and so on, know the women are very proud and it's not that they don't want but it's how it is in the culture. So if you go to the restaurant for instance, it is totally normal that the guy is going to pay the bill.
And you will not share the bill. If you want to invite a girl because you find her interesting and you want to go out with her, even if she really wants to also go out with you, she will not say yes to you immediately. She will first say, maybe, no, this is part of... It was what I did.
Yeah, you were acting that quite well there, so I got the point. And so when we talk with our students and so on, sometimes they say, I'm there. as another student who is following a class with me, he knows me. So he can also come and invite me for one time.
Victor (01:21:46.7)
I say, yes, of course you can do that, but you can also invite him because in the scene, most of the time, there are a lot of women, more women than leaders. So if I'm a leader and I'm already busy in the center of the room and there are other women waiting for their turn to dance with me, for instance, I will be maybe active during the whole night.
and I will not have this chance to come and invite you and maybe the only time that I'm not dancing is the time to rest. So if you stay on the side and you don't come and try to have your chance, then you can stay a whole night like this and you have maybe danced two, three dances and maybe not enjoy the same way as the other followers did. And so you can have one party, one will say, my God, this was an amazing party, the best party.
And the other one will say, it was a bit boring and I didn't dance so much. It's about being accessible. So you have to make yourself accessible by standing, by being next to the dancing and so on. But if you are too much on the side, or sitting and so on, you have less chance to dance. Because sometimes also the guys are shy.
Yes, of course. the guy are also shy. And girls sometimes we don't know but you have to invite me. But sometimes he also sees you sitting like this and you have to come also for him. Sometimes it's also... So I think it's about both sides. So of course when you have more women than men in the party, so we can both do the job.
we can invite the follower, the follower can invite us, but there will be more chance that we have a dance together if you invite the leaders, because the leader will be invited anyway, because they are active and busy. And so if you don't take this chance, we maybe stay on the side. And then...
Victor (01:24:00.97)
Also the fact that we were all beginners. I was a beginner, she was a beginner and the first party that we did we're also not confident. And so the dance is not about being the best. I think that when you go to dance with someone, you will share something with this person. So it's a connection you will create and we'll share a good moment. It's not about the level of dance, but it's about how
comfortable, we can connect ourselves. And sometimes we don't need too much. and even if you want to say it, no problem. You can say, hey, I would like to dance with you. I'm not so confident because I'm a beginner. Do you mind if we have a dance? If you say things like that, I can, yes, maybe there are some one who...
can say no but I cannot imagine that you will have no. Of course we can. Come we'll share a moment. Sometimes girls come to me, yes my friend wants to dance with you but she doesn't dare to ask. Yes. Then in this case, sometimes it's for Frans, I say okay Frans you have to go to dance with this girl because she cannot come to invite you.
And then I go to my friend. But sometimes it's a guy, he comes to me and says, okay, my friend wants to dance with you, but I know he can never invite you. Then I know, I see him, then after I go to invite him. And I think that the most experienced dancer and teachers will understand better than...
than someone who is dancing not from long but who is dancing already well. So if you go to dance, maybe say, she's a beginner. But if you go to a teacher, to an advanced dancer, the one with who you don't dare to ask, and you say, I started Kizomba not so long ago, and I would like to try a dance with you, it would be an honor for me. I don't know. Of course.
Victor (01:26:26.732)
Big pleasure, come!
again thank you both this is this is fantastic and I think people need to hear this as well but so what I'm summarizing there is just ask whether you're a male or female if they're a teacher beginner advanced just ask really we're all there to dance that's what it's all about the party's about so about Kizomba yes I'll just go for it and just do it lovely lovely lovely lovely all right that's great
I wanted to ask you both, what do you think is the most important skill for people to focus on to be good dancers? So if there were just one thing you would pick out, what do you think's the most, I mean, I know there's lots of things, but if there's one thing you would say, just maybe focus on this as a start to be a good dancer, what would you say?
What do? What would to to improve dancing skills?
Let's say two things. Sure. She's making you say what? The frame, the frame. Frame. OK. The frame is important. If you have a good frame as a follower and as a leader, so both, because it's not with the follower that we have to do 100 % of the leading and the job. And it's not the follower who have to anticipate and try to dance by herself. It's 50 -50 % of job.
Victor (01:28:11.85)
So if I have a good frame but my partner has also a good frame, she can receive the info I'm giving to her and answer to that. So I will give the intention and she will answer to that and will make the dance more fluent, more easy and not rude, And so a good frame is important. Yes, it's true for if I have to add the second thing, it's also this, the girls have to adapt.
them energy to the girl. Sometimes they are dancing like they are dancing alone. this is many times is the sometimes guys they told me, yes, the girls who do many ladies styling and Ginga class, sometimes they are dancing alone. Because sometimes in this class, they forget to think about, okay, I'm dancing alone in Ginga class, but I have to think after to adapt these steps to my partner.
the energy, the steps, everything. the style. For me, the three things, the style, energy, and the steps, we have to adapt this to our partner. Even we are doing Ginga classes, but we have to think after this for a couple of dances and not dancing alone. That's why when we give Bangla and Ginga classes, we try to give... Of course, we work alone.
with the man and the follower and the leader. with the girls, he works with men. And then at the end we try to put them in couple and so they can apply what they've learned. What they learned with me they have to apply, dancing with the guys directly and the guys try the guiding and so on. And that way they are really working on their skills and how to make their styles evolve, footwork, how to...
decide about how they want to shine better in the dance without influencing the partner. And so they can apply this with a partner is very important. Even when I do Jinga class, always I speak about the man because everything we do, we have to adapt this with our partner. Fantastic. Fantastic. Yeah, mean, it's just learning lots here. This is fantastic.
Victor (01:30:36.448)
So what then advice would you... So imagine obviously there's people watching or listening to this podcast and they want to do what you do, you know, they're thinking of aspiring to be teachers, dancers. So what kind of advice would you give to those people as you've been doing it for so long? Advice I will give to them is to first of all follow... to have a kind of mentor.
So for us, was Jose Nongala who brought us the Jose Nongala Kizomba of methodology. So we had a reference. And where you are not confident, you have one reference. You say, OK, you know you can do this. OK. The fact that he say that, I'm more confident now if I have to answer to my student. But when you are by yourself, you don't know if what you're giving is correct or not correct. So there is a...
Hesitation, exactly. And you are not 100 % confident. So first of all, you have to find your inspiration. Who do you like the most in the scene? And not about only the dance, because you have dancers and have teachers. So which teachers has impacted you? Because the way he has impacted you, if it is that way that you want to impact the other one, that will be interesting to see his...
how he evolved, where did he go, which training he followed and so on. So those elements are important. So follow a training, professional training with someone who has good teaching skills and you will feel it by following classes because most of the time what you have to know in communication, the words only count for 7%.
And that's why sometimes as a teacher you can say but look at the class of this guy. He's saying this, this, but it's not correct and it's totally nonsense and blah, blah, But the class is full because what he's saying counts only for 7%. If he's a good entertainer, if he transmit well, he communicates well and so on. He will touch people. So it's not only about knowledge. It's about...
Victor (01:33:03.17)
having skills to transmit. So come close to the person you want to look like and follow this training because you will have the knowledge. And when you have the knowledge, now you have to be able to give it. And to give it, the best way is to try. You cannot be perfect before beginning. So you need to have a certain base, a certain knowledge. When you have this knowledge,
Even if it's only a knowledge to give a beginner class, go and give this beginner class. Maybe you are not ready for the advanced class, but start already with this beginner class. And by giving it, you will become more and more confident. What is very important is that what is transmitted is correct. If you're not sure about what you're giving and you begin to give class because just it's fun, you will probably go in the direction.
where it's not the best for the scene because then we go away about the it's not the roots anymore it's not the culture anymore and you go away so learn with the training and the one who is doing teachers training and stuff like that normally they know what they say and in those trainings you will have visual people auditory people, kinaesthetic people, people who do the tree so you have to
to choose your mentor. And then don't hesitate to make private class, to work on the detail, to dance a lot, to work on your skills. And also what can make you better is to focus on not so many things at the same time, but you try to focus on one thing. Maybe for one month you will work on one topic. Because there are a lot of things to work on, but...
Just focus on one thing. You will integrate it better and then... This is what I can say like this. And also to be strong and... Because when you start, people will critique. Yeah, of course. You have to accept the criticism. Yes, because... Critique... How do you it? Criticism? Critique? How do you say that? How do you say you? That's right. That's exactly how we say it. How?
Victor (01:35:25.518)
He said it right correctly Not sure Not He was my mentor and you see the thing you said he was correct. No, I'm confident now you say yes Now no don't pay attention on this but take this as a food okay, then when you have you have critics then
you take this, you say, okay, he told me I'm not like this, I'm a bad teacher, I'm like this, don't transmit well, okay, take this and then work on this. If it's true, work on this, if it's not true, just put it away. Yes. Yes. But it's important to be open also on this because sometimes people, they stop, maybe he can go far but...
He looks at lot of critics like this and then you see the energy is not strong. Yes, it's something that you have to accept because we have trained a lot of teachers and at a certain moment their faiths on criticism and when they come back to us they okay, they say this, this, this, this, this, don't understand why because I'm not like this and la, la, li, la, la, la, say,
That's normal, that's normal. If you are not like this, put it up. If you begin to do a good work, automatically you will have people who support you and others who will criticize you. You take the most... Take a bigger, companies, the most known for phones. You have Apple, you have Samsung. You have people who really like Apple and people who don't like Apple.
You take the best footballer, soccer in the world, Cristiano Ronaldo, Lionel Messi. You have people who really love them and others who don't like them. It's totally normal. And so when you will face those criticisms, like she said, it's food for you. So even if it's not true, why did he say that? Yes. On what can I work on next time to avoid that?
Victor (01:37:50.19)
And when you enter in this philosophy, one more time you will evolve. Evolve, evolve, being better and better and better and better and better. Because sometimes it's nonsense. But never can stop you. You have to go until the end if you want to do You have to have your goal and when you have set your goal, just go in this direction. And it is normal if you have some obstacles, things that you didn't plan.
And stuff like that. This makes you more strong and this is part of the journey. And you have more experience about because you have this challenge. Yes. Yeah, no, so sound advice, very, very sound advice for anybody listening who wanting to step into that teacher world. So lots for you to take away. So thank you to you both. And, you know, I just kind of want to finish on a question in terms of Kizomba involving and, you know,
What role do you hope to play in the evolution of Kizomba in the future? How do you want to see it? Where do you want to see it go? And what part do you both want to play in that?
So, we can say is that.
before it was in Urban Kiz in Urban Kiz they evolve quickly and become quickly teachers because they have a lot of support between them so you have someone who begin to begin dance and six months later he wants to teach he has one friend of him with teacher already say okay come you will give a class in my school and
Victor (01:39:56.074)
It goes very quick and fast. They support each other. In the Kizomba scene in the beginning, it was not like that. You had to really prove that you are teacher and you are skilled. in the beginning, it was not easy. Today, it's more easy. We see a new generation, a talented generation learning fast with skills, beginning to give class with structure and so on.
This is good for this new generation, but attention to one thing. I don't see today a lot of women teachers. I see a lot of men teachers who travel alone at the festival and would take one assistant to give a class and he's giving class by himself. But we...
It's a couple dance and the woman can share a lot of things for my part. In my classes, Sarah brings another aspect that I cannot give. Of course, I can explain what she's saying, but the way she will explain it with her experience and touch the woman is different than me. And it's a couple job. And so...
We need more women. Women with dares. This is one thing. So this is something that I would like to see more in the future. Yeah, the teachers. And another thing is that in Urban Kiz, they do their marketing very well. In Kizomba, we don't have so much. So
This is something we try to invest in. Yes, it's an investment to work on your image and so on. So in the beginning, we tried to do that and we launched a movement. with this Avengers and so on. So we were recording professional videos to show the dance. And we made this collaboration. We began to give classes together and so on. And after that, what we saw?
Victor (01:42:18.208)
are the teachers beginning to collaborate and do things together. But concerning the marketing and the professional work videos and stuff like this, we have a work to do. We still have a work to do. And so this is an aspect that can be improved in the Kizomba scene to give the will also for the young generation to join the classes. Because most of the time when you travel in other countries and so on,
the ages of the students in Kizomba are higher than in Urban Kiz, for instance. And in our academy in Belgium, this is something, for instance, the people always say to us, but you have young people in your classes, you have people of 25 years old, 26 years old. How do you do that? Because I only have people of 45 years old, 50 years old. How do you do that? I think it's about
the projects you propose, if you do shows with your students, if you organize things in the open air during the summer, you have to attract those people to you. And this is done by marketing. Yes, it's to have everybody together in your class. We have people who have 20 years, then the other one 70 years, then we have everything. Then everybody can find the place in...
in the the academic. And so the wall I can say that we can where we can contribute. Now we have a lot of teachers following the teacher or teachers training in private. So we we give a lot of teachers training. And so we see today compared to before that the people are willing to learn properly. And so we are going to
continue like this and to propose more more teachers training, maybe abroad and not only in Belgium and so on. Videos, choreography, show, we have to make the people being involved in all those Kizomba marketing and videos and stuff like that. for instance, we will work lot with our students and today with our family life.
Victor (01:44:46.09)
is the good moment before it would have been complicated because they were too young. But now we can invest more in our marketing and make projects with people, broad videos to attract other, another public. And if everybody do this, our community will grow and
will be strong enough and because today we I think in the scene it's already better than before so everyone has his chance if you are doing a good job and you don't have to hesitate follow a training then begin to give maybe classes with what you are perfectly sure and you know and you master and then by continuing doing private classes and so on
you can still evolve and be better and better and better at certain moments you will be a reference and we need other people who transmit the culture. If it's only about popularity, doing videos, doing steps, impress the people at the party, we will lose something about this beautiful culture and dance. So this was like...
That's what I can say. For me, it's a little bit the same because we work always together. And just one thing, yes, for me, I want also to help many girls because many girls have this problem of self -confidence. Yes, sometimes they need more energy to continue. Then for my parties, I'm just to help.
help more people to have more confidence in the dance and if they understand some things they really can shine. Yes, be elegant and yes it's more about this for me. Fantastic, fantastic and again lots to share. It's really about sharing isn't it and making sure that we're
Victor (01:47:13.88)
We're marketed well and Kizomba spreads and we share it. So many people come to these events because we love, we love this thing. Right. We absolutely love it. So no, thank you. Thank you so much to you both for being with us on the podcast. It's great to find that about you and also learn a bit more about Kizomba and obviously the future of where it's going. But just before we release you, we have
just very, very bit of fun, quick bit of fun that we'd like to have on the podcast. So you can see here, well, I think you can see there are three cards. All right. So we have three. don't know if you can see the colour clearly, but one is white, white, yellow, and orange. Yeah. Okay. Red maybe. All right. So there's three cards and there's three of us. So the idea is for you to each individually pick one colour . I read the question.
and then you tell us the answer. So ladies first, Sarah, colour ? Yellow. Yellow, yellow, Because we need more sun.
this is a interesting question. So the question is, I wish I got this question. It says, which dance, which dance teaching couple do you enjoy watching the most?
Victor (01:48:42.676)
apart from yourselves? I like to see my friend Josie and Fabrizio dancing together. Josie and Fabrizio, okay so why? What's the reason? Yes because when she she dances I really love to see how she adapts himself to the energy because she's not dancing doing more movement but she really connects the energy with him. With him and Fabrizio.
He's really clear also in the movement when he drew the movement with the body and them together, I really like to see them together. Then there is the other artist also I really like, but the first like this because I speak with her yesterday. Okay, okay, okay. Then yes, yes, the two like this in first thing, yes.
Fantastic. Okay, so Josie and Fabrizio. Okay. Thank you, Sarah. Frans, what colour would you like? Let's say the white. Yes, the white. Nobody want this. Okay. If Kizomba was not an option, could you imagine that? But anyway, if Kizomba was not an option, what other dance style do you think you would be doing? this is a good question for you.
I never asked him because before, Frans was dancing nothing. When we go to the party, we were like a bodyguard. Shy, shy, quiet. Bodyguard with the drink like this and even just do this. Sometimes I say, okay, move a little bit, do something. Nothing. Okay, now I'm curious to know. That's a good question. Yeah.
Maybe Bachata Sinsual? I think... I have to choose one. One? Okay, you have a dance from Congo, have salsa, you Bachata, you have hip -hop, you have... I think... Because I would have worked the same way in this other dance.
Victor (01:51:13.158)
Maybe Afro house, yes. Maybe Afro house. Kuduro, yes. Something like this. Yes, with energy. Yeah, so Sarah, can you see him doing that? This, yes, he can. Because we already did this. We make one week, all week in Portugal with the group.
Dancer and we we we did together then training that we follow just like this and yes, but yes, okay Great so I for house. All right. So the last one is one I always answer so you didn't pick this one any of you so The red one. So the question is has anyone ever complimented you on your dancing? And what did they say so?
For some reason, I was dancing one time, a long time ago with a lady and she could not believe that I was not Angolan. And I'm like, what? Like, what are you talking about? She goes, you really, where are you from? I told her where I'm from, which is Ghana. And I like the, you know, I like Kizomba, but I'm not Angolan and I'm not that much of a great dancer. But for her, she was, couldn't, she couldn't believe it. So she feels like a good connection.
I said, yeah, that's what it was. So I say, OK, well, you know what? I take that. Thank you. Thank you very much. So that was it. So it's my way to have a it's a pleasure to have a compliment like this. absolutely. So I just like thank you very, much. But listen, friends, Sarah, thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. It's been great. We've learned so much from you both.
Victor (01:53:09.046)
No problem. Yeah, no, it's we had to have you on the show. But before we go, please tell us what you know, where we can find you on your socials, what's coming up for you. Yeah, just just let us know, We are on Instagram, on YouTube, on Facebook. So everything is France and Sarah Kizomba love France and Sarah Kizomba love your friends.
If you go there, then we could find out about all your events, everything that's happening. Exactly. Exactly. All right, everyone. So make sure you go and check that out. And I just want to say thank you to you both again. It's been a blast. And to say thank you to everyone for watching. You know, like we always say, please let us know what you think of the episode. Comment, like, whatever it might be, subscribe, and also tell us who you would like us to see and interview on the podcast next. All right.
So for now, we are going to say goodbye. And like I always say, keep dancing and we will see you on the dance floor. Peace. Thank you. See you. Bye.