Episode #12: In Conversation with Kizomba Teacher Miguel Monteiro

TAKEAWAYS

• Kizomba is a rich cultural dance with deep roots.

• Understanding the culture behind Kizomba is essential for dancers.

• New dancers should explore various teachers to enhance their learning.

• Kizomba has been present in the UK long before its recent popularity.

• The teaching approach in Kizomba needs to focus on connection and feeling.

• Miguel emphasizes the importance of practice beyond just attending classes.

• The Sabura Festival aims to celebrate Kizomba and its community.

• Kizomba's evolution in the UK has faced challenges but continues to grow.

• Dancers should respect the cultural significance of Kizomba.

• The Kizomba scene in Germany is more structured compared to the UK.

SOUND BITES

• "Kizomba is like a tree with many branches."

• "You need to learn the culture behind the dance."

• "I was the first to push Kizomba into the UK scene."

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction to Kizomba and Miguel Montero
04:31 Miguel's Journey into Dance
18:36 The Evolution of Kizomba in the UK
32:38 Teaching Kizomba: Challenges and Insights
47:10 Kizomba's Cultural Significance and Future
01:00:47 Comparing Kizomba Scenes: UK vs Germany
01:18:05 The Sabura Festival and Community Building

TRANSCRIPT

Victor (00:10)

Hello, Kizomba enthusiasts and welcome back to another episode of Kizomba Conversations. As always, I'm your host Victor and today we are joined by another super guest, Miguel Monteiro is with us today. ⁓ dance teacher, has been doing it for many, many, many years. He was the original in the UK and we are going to be talking to him about all things Kizomba . So let's welcome the amazing Mr. Miguel. How are you doing, sir? ⁓

Miguel (00:39)

Very, very good. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Like I said to you when we spoke at the looks, mean, yeah, I said to you, I really would like to join you because there are a couple of stuff we need to really put out there to make people realize exactly how and where we all come from, which way do we talk to get to where we are today. So here I am trying to share what I know somehow.

Victor (01:08)

An original OG, an OG of Kizomba as with us today, people, OG in the house. And exactly what you were saying, so like you were saying, you were one of the first, so this episode, obviously Kizomba is big, but this episode I really want to focus in on the UK scene because I know you were over here, so we can talk about that, where it was, where it is ⁓ now, how it's developed over the years. So we're looking forward to that conversation, man.

Victor (01:34)

But as always, you know how this ⁓ podcast goes. We want to find out a bit about our guests, right? So outside of Kizomba , before we get into it, who is Miguel? And how did you get involved into it? Well, actually, let's talk about who's Miguel first. Yeah. OK. So ⁓ let's take a step back. First of all, ⁓ I come from a non-dancing family, frankly speaking. And ⁓ back in the day, been from African descent. So to us,

Miguel (02:03)

Party is just a standard thing. And you see your elders dancing and you're of like just hanging around checking it out. ⁓ why is this, you know? Yeah. And the interest didn't start with me straight away until like later when I was 13, 14, when I really start picking it up, the sounds. I'm like, okay, I can tell the difference between the instruments. And that's how he started with me. So I was listening to all sorts of music to try to create some sort of like idea in my head.

Miguel (02:33)

And then the interest of learning to dance kicked in afterwards. So for me, it started with the music first and then the learning part can afterwards. ⁓ I haven't said that and I had the experience like I was with my two of my cousins. These we talking in Lisbon and we went to the shopping mall. And there was like some sort of exhibition type of thing and there was like acrobatics and all this stuff. They do not different stuff.

Miguel (03:02)

And then at one point there was a solo artist, a ballet dancer. So just by watching the way she was moving, what she was doing, I was just like, my God. You you just start clicking things in your head, like really creating this funny idea. how do know somebody could do stuff like this, you know? So that's how the interest started. And I started talking to my cousin about it. And my cousin always loved going out, obviously.

Miguel (03:32)

because he was older than me. I was not allowed to. ⁓ he used to tell me, we went to this place, you know, we met these people, we dance all night long and this and that. So, that thing started in your head. That's how everything just, at some point, I just went to my mom and like, mom, I saw this thing, I don't know what it is, but the person was moving so nicely and then the coordination between the arms and the leg, the body expression, and to

Miguel (04:02)

the flow with the music, it was just really crazy. And she's like, what do you mean by that? You know, I tried to describe it. And she said, OK, what we're going to do is this. We're going to go around town. Just look around and I'm going to try to find out what event was there. ⁓ Eventually, she did. And then she said, OK, this is what we're going to do. Obviously, if I go and tell your dad, he's going to say no. Let's be clear right now. ⁓

Miguel (04:31)

So the best option or best course of action will be like this. ⁓ I'm going to give you a birthday present because it was coming near my birthday. So that's how the things link up. So what we're going to do, we're going to say just for you to try and see how you feel about it. And that's when interest of jazz coming into my play. Before Kizomba , before anything. This contemporary jazz thing is just because of the smoothness of the movement, just

Miguel (05:00)

Somehow you're just like, this is your thing. I don't know what you're going to do with it, but this is your thing. Try to find out more. And that's how everything started for me. And then on that day, I went to do school downtown Lisbon to try out. I feel a little bit embarrassed because we've been a kid. A male kid in contemporary jazz thing is more dominant by females. ⁓ So you kind of feel really awkward about it. ⁓

Miguel (05:30)

I don't know if I should say I was lucky or not, but I believe I was lucky because the teacher was so, I wouldn't say nice, was the person who went that extra mile to make you really ⁓ feel welcoming to the scene and show me only basic stuff. After an hour and half or something like this, he went to my mom and said, I think your kid has other potential. really? Yeah.

Miguel (05:58)

And my mom lied to me. He died when just like, okay, the next problem is how I'm going to tell his dad. ⁓ You know, Africa. Yes. ⁓ That's why I'm laughing. ⁓ He's just a no go. Yeah. Yeah. And my mom on the car driving back, my mom was just like, okay, you know what? I need to figure this out, but leave it with me. We're going to leave it like this.

Miguel (06:26)

I'll work something out. Don't worry about it. ⁓ So come Christmas gone and blah, blah. And then I was like, mom, what's going on? I really want to know, you know, because I was getting this excitement and she's like, ⁓ I need more time and blah, blah. Luckily, me and my cousin again, we went to his friend's house and his friend was on holidays somewhere in Cuba. don't remember exactly. I think Cuba or Latin America. Let's see. Just. And he was like,

Miguel (06:56)

Man, I have some nice music you have to listen to blah blah blah. So he stopped playing salsa music. Okay, and I'm like, My god, what is it? And he's like went. ⁓ when we were there my god, you want to see people dancing from day to night non-stop and he's party blah blah He's kids and all the people they all mixed together. I'm like, my god. What is this and is Gonna give me a little bit of you

Miguel (07:25)

year going by, obviously in Portugal, it wasn't that big thing. Sass is nowadays, back then it was not. That was many years ago. And then I flew into London for some holidays. And this is when all my journey as a dancer began. Okay, talk to us. ⁓ So what happened is that I flew in on to London on 90, end of 97.

Miguel (07:54)

⁓ 1997. ⁓ I came in for just for a weekend because part of my dad's family lives here. So then they were like, OK, come and spend Christmas with us and you see. then if you like it, instead of you coming in the wintertime, you come in the summer because it's easier to make the transition, obviously, because of the cold and all that. So I was here for the Christmas. It was freezing. I'm not going to lie to you. was freezing. my God. Went back and my mom was like, what do think?

Miguel (08:25)

And I was like, mom, I'm not sure. Okay. Yeah. I'm not sure. It's nice. We went to so many different places, all the tourist stuff we did. ⁓ And my mom was like, you know, for your studies is much better. And also for your dancing thing, think about it. You're going to be away from your dad so you cannot control what you're going to do on your spare time. So I was like, okay, not that idea. If you put it like that.

Miguel (08:55)

And then comes the summer and she keep on asking, do you want to go or not? Like June came, I was like, no, July, no. Mid August, my uncle came from London to Lisbon. Not even asking me, just came in. We were sitting on the table, having food and blah, blah. Finished dinner. ⁓ Everybody's about to leave. Say, no, no, sit down, sit down. I need to talk to you. My mom, your mom told me that you'll be thinking about going to London.

Miguel (09:25)

but you're not too sure. And he's like, listen, I'm telling you right now, you live in next variety. wow. And I'm like, no, you didn't speak to my dad. My dad was in Africa at the time. And he's like, I'm older than your dad. So he's my little brother. I think I can speak for him. So I'm telling you right now, you have one week in Lisbon. After that, he's finished. You're I'm like, no.

Miguel (09:53)

I don't know, have my friends, have this. Hey, it's not a discussion. I'm just telling you, okay? So next day, booked my ticket and everything. On that Friday, sorry, that, yeah, I flew on Saturday morning. So on that Friday, my cousin was like, okay, we have to go out, we have to drink. I'm not allowed to drink because I was too young. And he's like, but we can go out to the parties, know, dancing a little bit in Lisbon, da da da, went.

Miguel (10:20)

My flight was at 10 o'clock in the morning, Saturday. I was out with my cousin and all the group until 7 a.m. Out. Out. mean, out and about. It's like party all night long. My aunt pick up the phone. Where are you? And I'm like, I am with the so and so. You need to be in airport in one hour. And I'm like, yeah, I know.

Miguel (10:50)

No, you need to go because you need to come and pack your things and you need to leave. I'm like, no, I'm just going to take a backpack because in my head I was saying to myself, I'm going to go anywhere after summer. I'm coming back anyway, nearly missed the flight because I'm not taking the taxi to manage everything. Go there, get to London. My cousins was waiting for me. They took me on the bow because it was Saturday night. ⁓ guess what? We going out tonight.

Miguel (11:18)

And I'm like, yeah, why not? I'm on holiday. It doesn't matter. ⁓ so went to town, ⁓ central London, went to, ⁓ Zubar. ⁓ We were there party, da da da da. And then we left Zubar. We went to Echinox. my God. ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ This is a whole style. ⁓ So we're taking walks after Echinox. One of the guys like, you know what? I know the

Miguel (11:48)

best place we can go to. And we were all like, why? It's okay. He's like, no, it's boring here. Come on. This house music and blah, but techno. It's okay, but it's not for all night. You need something else. And I'm like, okay, what's the plan? Come, let's go. That's what take me directly into Bar Salsa in ⁓ Leicester Square. You want to see my Victor, my eyes went like this. ⁓

(12:16)

You know, sorry. ⁓ My eyes went so big and everybody looking at me. Are you OK? Is there something wrong? And I'm like, you guys don't understand. You really don't understand. Like. This thing, I don't know how you call it, but this thing in Lisbon, someone just play a music to me and told me about this amazing event, the dancing thing, da da da. I was like, wow.

Miguel (12:47)

And to be at the place where they play this type of music for you to just be there, you know, to me it's like you put a kid inside of candy shop. Victor, I swear to you for one year, or one year, I was going to Bar Salsa every day. Every day? Every Was it open every day? It opened every day, Monday to Sunday. Wow. Okay. I was at school. I was doing my part-time job. Finish, I go to Bar Salsa.

Miguel (13:17)

every single day for one year. I couldn't dance to save my life. I'm not going to lie to you. But the good thing is that I'm a very good observer. And I have this music instinct. ⁓ So it took me over six months to have the courage to ask somebody to dance. But that was not even a salsa dance. It was a merengue dance, which is just the one, movement. ⁓ Yeah, easy stuff. Get it done. Out of the way, you know? ⁓ After I'd that,

Miguel (13:47)

And I'm like, you know what? It's time to do something about this. You find what you like. Your passion is here. Even even to show you how crazy this I was working, studying, going to Barca. So it's like a cycle. Yeah. Yeah. Wake up in the morning. You go to school after school. You got your part-time job. Finish their bar salsa. Finish the night. Go home three, four o'clock in the morning. Get up next day. Running again. Wow.

Miguel (14:16)

Imagine I was doing that for one year. So I was broke. I'm not gonna lie to you. I was broke because I was not making enough money and plus I'm a student so yeah What happened was that then I met the guy there in my salsa. He was a great dancer to me anybody at that point He's a great dancer And I was watching this guy. It was like God the way it turns we moved the sequence is using with a lady

Miguel (14:44)

And then I was fascinated because at some point he just turned the lead, do this flip and slide. I'm like, whoa, I want to learn this. So I approached the guy like, ⁓ I'm sorry, ⁓ I love the way you dance. Can you tell me more about it? So I would like to learn from you if you have classes and stuff like this. Yeah, I do have a classes. And the class was at a club called La Finca. Okay. you know, between King's Cross and

Miguel (15:14)

Old Street. That one I don't know. That one escaped me. So he's a very old. Yeah. OK. ⁓ So ⁓ that's how he started with me. I was in the beginners class. I did a beginners class for like two weeks and I find it too boring. The teacher actually look at me and say to me, you're too good to be a move on to the next one. know, because I have this good eye catching thing. So for me, I learn very quickly by watching someone. It's amazing. You know. Yeah. So the person say to not move on.

Miguel (15:44)

I moved to the next level within one month, moved to the next level. In a space of four to five months, I was already dancing in adVentsd group. Wow. That's how quick my learning process was. But thankfully, the people I had in front of me as a teacher, they were good people. They knew what I was doing. They were very professional. They just make you feel like, OK, you want to learn? You got to work for it. Obviously, just doing the class is not enough.

Miguel (16:13)

Let's be very clear about it because this is a myth. A lot of people think I go to the class, I learn this is good enough. ⁓ No, totally no. End of quote. I'm not going to say anything else. Just know you need to learn. You need to practice and practice mean use your own time to practice. ⁓ that, I learned this. I practiced this for 10, 15 minutes. I was done. OK, what's next? That is not an answer.

Miguel (16:43)

That is somebody, in my view, he just want to learn something, but he's not prepared to put the extra to get better. And that is the biggest problem here in the UK. ⁓ That people begin something, as soon as they get to a comfortable level, this is good enough for me. I don't need more. So now I can create my own stuff and do this, do that.

Miguel (17:14)

The thing, I wouldn't say I'm against it, but it's one of the reasons why the business, the dancing business, Inky Samba, I'm not talking salsa and the other one, just Inky Samba. Back in the day, it grew, it grew to certain level, and then we stagnated. I left the UK 2013, and to me, it's still here. And we're talking over 10 years later. ⁓

Victor (17:45)

That's great, yeah. And I'm very impressed about your level of dancing, your dancing ability, how you can just watch and observe. I'm jealous of that because I have challenged as a dancer. So I'd love to be able to do that like you are. So that's great. So I love that story. I love the story about your, well, I say your dad, but I just like, the fact is, you you saw something you liked and then it's hard to tell someone like that, especially for Africans. But the point is,

Victor (18:11)

It's in your heart. So it could have been anything, right? But it was dance. Very true. Yeah. So the other thing then is, and the fact that, you dance a lot of different styles. ⁓ Lots of things. So let's focus in on Kizomba then. So how did you get involved in Kizomba ? So you told us a bit about salsa. Yeah. So what was the Kizomba origin? Yeah. How did that happen? Well,

Miguel (18:36)

Put it like this. ⁓ This is one of the reasons why I wanted to be on your podcast. Because to me as a dancer, not as a Miguel Monteiro the greatest, I'm not. But as a dancer, it's important that you learn a little bit about the culture when it comes to dance. And we're talking Kizomba . Kizomba is such a rich culture. And the influences we have is so vast that

Miguel (19:04)

Even today, I'm still learning new stuff. Okay? And a lot of people take that for granted. Or is my teacher, I stay by him and that's it. I always say to my students, all of them, don't focus on me. I don't need a copycat. I don't. What I need is for you to understand. And for you to understand, you need to invest your time to learn. You need time to investigate. Because nowadays everything is easy. We have Google.

Miguel (19:33)

Google the stuff and you get tons of tons of information. If there's anything you don't understand, come to the teacher. Hey, look, I read this out. Can you just enlighten me? Point me out in the right direction. People are not ready to do that. There's very few number of people does that. And I still don't understand why. But back to what you're asking, Kizomba . Kizomba started with me. ⁓

Miguel (20:01)

⁓ 2003, 2003 I would say. Because it's three years later after I arrived. yeah, 2001, end of 2002 in between that. So how long had you been doing salsa for up to the point you got to Kizomba ? Salsa I was already doing for three years. Three years, okay, then you got, okay. So what happened with the Kizomba was that there was a teacher here. Actually, let me take a step back.

Miguel (20:29)

A lot of people think Kizomba started when I pushed it into the scene. No, totally wrong. Kizomba was in UK 20 years before I arrived. Wow. Yeah. And a lot of people don't know this. Yeah. Yeah. And the people who used to run this, one of them is DJ Hugo, no Hugo Boss, DJ Boss.

Miguel (20:56)

God, can see it's very Jackson. Okay. Jackson is one of the people used to do only his own party. Okay. The only Kizomba party in all of London. was near East London summer. I don't remember the area exactly, but he's after strat for is a little bit further up. Upton park. I'm not sure. I don't remember exactly. And this party used to run on every Saturdays. The plot, the place was so packed. Really?

Miguel (21:25)

You have people traveling from everywhere. I remember I used to live near West Dulwich, that's South London. So it takes over an hour for us to get up north or east side of London. So we have to do that journey. And there's no guarantee you get into the door, you're going to get inside. Wow. ⁓ No, seriously.

Miguel (21:53)

Seriously, because he's so packed. Yeah. And there's a specific time, but I think before 1130 or so like this, they shut the door. So you're not allowed to get in anymore because there's no space. Yeah. That was the party that was running for so long. I don't know how long they had the party, but I knew he was way before anything. So go back into the teaching part. There is a guy called Kwenda Lima. Yes. And a lot of people know who he is. Yeah.

Miguel (22:23)

Kwenda Lima was the very, very first person to start the dancing class of Kizomba here in the UK. The very first. But what he was doing, he ⁓ was doing a very small group of people. And he was not into like, want to spread this out. It's more like creating a small community where they can share the moment, enjoy it by themselves. And inside of that group, we had Rikita.

Miguel (22:54)

Rikita Alta. ⁓ Cherno Saliu. He doesn't teach anymore. ⁓ Myself. There's a lady called Norma. yeah. Norma Fancy. Norma. ⁓ I'm not sure. He's married to a guy from Birmingham. Yeah, Norma Fancy. Producer says Norma Fancy. ⁓ We take that. ⁓

Miguel (23:23)

⁓ Also, is a... God, the group was very small. I don't remember all the names, but these people were the first one, so-called learning to dance. There are other people in the group. ⁓ But what Kwenda was doing is more like a fun thing rather than a business thing. On the highlight of all of this, where people don't know too, me and Kwenda, are related. OK.

Miguel (23:52)

Yeah, because Kwenda's mom is Kwenda's ⁓ dad, Kwenda's dad's sister is married to my uncle, which is the younger brother from my dad. I'll just keep it as you're related. You've got to give the right information before you get in trouble. know what I mean? Absolutely, especially on the podcast. Yeah, exactly. ⁓

Miguel (24:20)

That's how we relate. It's not because I'm making it easy. So we are cousins. Third cousin, second cousin, doesn't matter, but we are related. And on one Saturday, we were sitting in one of my cousin's house, just having Sunday ⁓ afternoon lunch, family stuff, gathering, music playing, having our fun. And we start talking about this Kizomba stuff and when at the time...

Miguel (24:46)

He was finishing his university or his master or something like this, and he had to go back to Lisbon. So in our chit chat, and he said to me, you dance salsa, you're pretty good at it. Why not transfer your knowledge of salsa, teach it, into Kizomba ? And frankly speaking, I swear on my son's life, I do not want to teach Kizomba . To me, salsa is everything, right?

(25:15)

So even when you saw Kizomba being nothing happened, like it caught you with salsa, nothing. ⁓ interesting. ⁓ I have a thing about me. Like for example, when I go to festivals, I need to have my salsa fixed before I jump into Kizomba room. Because I know once I'm in Kizomba room, I don't get out. ⁓ I know that. Yeah. So either I do my salsa on a Friday night or I do it on a Sunday night.

(25:43)

But I need one day that he just, me and myself. That's cool. ⁓ So then I can connect stuff. back to the story, the point was that we talk about it. And I say to him, Kizomba to me is here. know, it's what I feel is I need to keep it that way. I don't want him to affect the feeling or the love I have for Kizomba . Bring it into the business side of it. I can't see it happening. But the more we will.

Miguel (26:13)

talking about and he said, listen, I'm This started, I'm leaving. If you don't do it, somebody else will. And that will be your loss. Well, he's so into the future, Exactly. know, ⁓ what happened was then ⁓ there was also, and then later on he started doing small collaboration with Iris de Brito. And they did a couple of stuffs together.

Miguel (26:41)

and they did a small demo at El Grande. But people think that was the first Kizomba demo. Well, I would call it a demo because it was not a show. That's actually first Kizomba show ever in the UK. It done by me and Iris. ⁓ That was before when El Grande used to be in Voxel. Yeah, I remember. ⁓ And our show was called Eyes.

Miguel (27:10)

wide shot. You remember the movie from ⁓ Tom Cruise? Yeah. On that show she was dancing with a blindfold totally. So that was a very professionally like all structured, a Zumba show. was the very, very first one. Is there anywhere we can see that? YouTube? Is there anywhere in archives? I have archives somewhere. going to send it to you. ⁓ Yeah. So that was the very, very first one. And then the second point is this.

Miguel (27:39)

about the teaching part. I met a salsa guy, we used to be great buddies, called Frank Santos. He's a Bachata guy. At the time, Bachata was only starting. So he's in Bachata part. I was in Kizomba and Salsa. So we had a dance group called I.M.I.L., which is just a salsa show group. On that year, when we launched our first show, we won

Miguel (28:08)

every single thing that was available in the UK. Yeah. Because we were something new, we were something fresh and he's a young talent. Because salsa back then was run by the OGs, so you know, when they say that's what's go. That's it. There's no competition about it, you know. They're the big boss, you are under, you follow. That's And what we did, we kind of break the chain with the so-called dance group thing. There were shows, but the shows were...

Miguel (28:40)

in not innovative. Let's put it like that. So what we did, we we changed our narrative with our show. We were dynamic young fellas. Anyway, moving forward from that, we sat down in one of the events in Birmingham. We were having dinner. Frank Turan said to me, you know what? This Saturday is not going to work. And I'm like, why? We're doing good. It's our first year. We didn't even make six months of the show and you're already thinking like.

(29:09)

He say to me, no, it's not gonna work. There is too many people in front of us. And the only way for us to get to the top, we have to come up with something so different. And what I mean different, we have to go a different way than these people. So my idea is very simple. You have your Kizomba , I have my bachata. What we gonna do, we break away from salsa. Leave salsa alone.

Miguel (29:38)

we find our way around it. And that's how the teaching part becomes important to me because then having the partnership with Iris obviously we have our ups and downs and agreement, no agreement. He got to the point that I would say like, I need to step back from it. Cause my vision obviously was not going the same way she was doing. So because she was a salsa girl too. And she did pretty good in salsa too. So I didn't want to follow that part.

Miguel (30:08)

after talking to Frank and Frank showed me his vision and he said to me, look, I give you an example. He, Frank was in another salsa show before we put our ⁓ show together. So he was in another salsa show group. I was working with the heroes. Yeah. And he said to me, compare when we can be so creative and so different, not depend on other people. Why should we stay behind them?

Miguel (30:38)

At the time I was, I'm not gonna lie, I was scared, you know? I'm just come out of being a good teacher, jumping to the show part, because that's the most challenging part in dancing, is to actually stand in front of million of people and show them what you do. And in salsa, they are tight. You cannot mess it up. Doesn't matter how good you are. You mess it up, you get cut like that, and that's it. You're done.

Miguel (31:08)

It doesn't matter how many times you tried to come back. You just not no go and That thing was just so super scary to me I was like I don't want to lose my passion of dancing and if I take this road where he's gonna lead me into mm-hmm, know luckily at El Grande again, I Was there just having my fun and blah blah blah. I met then my partner. She's called Marlene. My Marlene Almeida

Miguel (31:37)

met in a bar, chit chatting. you Portuguese? ⁓ okay. We started talking Portuguese because my English was not so good. So was like, ⁓ finally I found somebody that can speak the same language. Okay, let's start. So we start chit chatting, exchange number. We keep on talking and like, okay, you want to meet up and blah, Moving forward, for meeting up becomes my girlfriend, for being my girlfriend, become my dance partner. And then that's when everything start kicking in. So we break off from salsa.

Miguel (32:08)

I say to Frank, okay, I'm ready. Let's give it a push. So you do your stuff, I do my stuff. In six months time, we sit down again, see where we stand in. I tell you something, Victor, this, and one of the first reasons why I'm, well, the second reason I wanted to be here is that a lot of people, so-called newcomers, new promoters, new dancers, new teachers, they really don't know what I went through personally.

Miguel (32:38)

Yeah, to get Kizomba to this level people have today. A lot of people don't know this. Yeah. Let's put into perspective. I was investing my own money. traveled this country up and down, you name it. Yeah, because I want people to know about Kizomba . I was the one, the very first one who pushed Kizomba into the dancing scene. Kizomba existed before.

Miguel (33:08)

But as a dance style inside of a salsa event, let's call it inside of a dancing scene, I was very first one to push it. Very first one. I lost three cars having accident on the motorway because I was too tired of traveling. I was sleeping on the petrol stations. I quit my job to do this. Wow. Because I couldn't see the potential that could come out of it.

Miguel (33:38)

Yeah, yeah. You know, like perfect example, if you get a chance, I don't know if you know Robert, why, Robert and Jean, why do you know them for sure? ⁓ used to learn salsa with them when I first started doing salsa. ⁓ would say Robert and Jean was, Robert and Jean and Phil from El Grande was the only people who actually, actually helped me to get up.

Miguel(34:09)

Really encouraging, do it. We here, I can't give you big slot, I give you small one, but we build it up step for step. know, slowly you will get there. Robert, you can ask Robert this, when he used to have his night, yeah? I used to fight with him about this. Robert, please play kids on my music. He used to refuse. No, if I do it, you're gonna break the energy of the room. People don't know what it is. I'm like, Robert, it doesn't matter, just one song. Just one or two songs.

Miguel (34:38)

Back in the days, in a party, if you have two songs of Kizomba  in all night, that's too much.

Miguel (34:47)

I swear to you on my life people don't know this stuff. They think our kids on by just not now we have kids over let's ⁓ No, it's not like that. Yeah, I sweat you ⁓ I Had I don't know if you know a dancer Danny K is a salsa guy. No, no Last year in motion city we were talking and there was like a bunch of teachers and organizers sitting chit-chatting I would just walk in pass and they were talking about a dancing scene the example

Miguel (35:16)

He stood up and he said, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, You see that guy walking over there? Because of him, I become a Kizomba  dancer. And he was the very first one who actually started this thing for all of us here. You know? ⁓ But he's not a good businessman, because he thinks more with his heart than actual money, which is my mistake. You know? When you love something, you don't

Miguel (35:44)

put a price on it. Yeah, exactly. You know? Yeah. And to be honest, at up to certain point, yes. ⁓ I regret being like that. Because if I look at it in purely purely just business side of things, honestly, I will not be in the position. I'm good right now. Don't get me wrong. Don't get me wrong. But I will be in a better position if we talk in financially. Yeah.

Miguel (36:10)

But that's not important. What is important is the spread of the culture for people to know. And also Mauricio Reyes, I work with him since 2005 till today. Robert and Jean, same thing. Uncle Phil from El Gran, till today. You know, we build up something back in the day. A lot of people didn't want to give it a try. But once I start doing that, then people become

Miguel (36:40)

interested. Like I spoke about Iris, she was into salsa and then she switched to Kizomba  too. And then there was a guy from Kent called Nelson Campos. And then there was a guy from Sheffield called Robert, forgot his surname now, Robert something. And then you have a guy from Birmingham, you know. ⁓

Victor (37:04)

And then ⁓ the listens, you know, for some point you start kicking in slowly. Yeah. Yeah. And then later on Eddie, Eddie Vents came afterwards. Like, well, before. Yeah. mean, lot of people know Eddie Vents, a great teacher, great, great dancer. ⁓ but I want to pick up on a couple of things that you've mentioned there. So two things, particularly one is around. So I'm trying to find out who, who were your Kizomba  influences or mentors?

Victor (37:34)

to teach you Kizomba . ⁓ And, well, if you remember, how did you see the vision? Because you say Kizomba has been here longer time than ⁓ even I knew. And Kwenda was talking about, if you don't do this now, somebody else will. Kizomba 's massive. mean, it is huge. It's great. It's huge, right? It's all over the world. Yeah, so I'm just trying to figure out how did you know? Or did you know? OK, let's take the first question first.

Victor (38:03)

Who were your influences? Obviously, ⁓ for us African is something we brought up into, is our culture. Obviously, we look upon our elders to kind of pick up something from them about history, the dance, the music and so on. As a teacher, like I said, my luck was to start with salsa. So I have that foundation, that structure of teaching from salsa. ⁓

(38:32)

And obviously my influence is part of it is what Kwenda was doing. Not everything, but some of them. ⁓ And then obviously you put those two things together, you start developing your own stuff. And my structure of work, for example, Victor, has been 22 years now, I would say.

(38:57)

I have my own DVD, DVD one and two, ⁓ called Structural DVD for Teaching, until today. Until today. Not one person return it. Because what I try to do is I use the concept how the Salsa people work, transfer that into Kizomba . In the beginning, a lot of people criticized me for that. But they didn't see my vision.

(39:25)

They always say, no, you're teaching this wrong. shouldn't be like this. shouldn't. But understand one thing. If I'm going to take Kizomba , how Kizomba is as a pure essence, bring it into somebody who never have a clue, they will never get it right. Yeah. Let's be honest about it. You need to find a way to transfer this in smaller pieces that that person somehow can find the connection into it. And then it becomes easier to edit.

(39:54)

educate the person later. No, actually the pure or the reality of it is like this. For example, the way I teach, I like to structure my class from A to B point. Like if you're moving from here to there. Instead of thinking the Kizomba concept when we are in a circle rotation. Why do I do that? Because of the salsa people. Because of the training I had as a salsa to become a salsa teacher.

(40:24)

And that concept works so well for the Europeans. For them, they find that amazing. They may not get it right, but there are something they remember is registered to them. Instead of me, for example, if I start coming in and do all the steps and start moving in a circle orientation, they're going to find it so crazy. It's like, no, what are these guys doing? Because I tried it. Don't get me wrong. I tried it. And my partner at the time, Marlene Sohn, no, we need to find a better way.

(40:54)

This way is not going to work. And the other help I had was from Marlene because she's a fitness instructor. So we bring things from outside into our concept of work to create what we have until today. I didn't work with Marlene for the last 10 years or so. ⁓ This year in Mambo City, we worked together for the very first time again. It felt like we never been apart from each other because we know each other so well. We connect.

(41:25)

Just like that for a second. Yeah, like preparing the class We sat in the room having a coffee and she's like I have these ideas. I have this idea ⁓ You know what let's just try to change the steps here and within Three minutes we create a career. Wow. Yeah, that's our mind work because of the connection we have You know, even though we've been away from each other for ten years. You know, so

(41:54)

To me, that makes me believe what I'm doing, it is not wrong at all. ⁓ Many people will not agree with me, believe me, especially so-called teachers in Portugal. ⁓ But to me, that don't make any difference. Like I said, I moved to Germany in the school where I work. Thank God for that. And it's been over 10 years I've been there. And everything I'm doing seems to work just the way I was thinking about.

(42:25)

You know, you don't stay in one place for 10 years if he's not working. Yeah. Yeah. Let's be honest about it. ⁓ although that I'm a salsa teacher, I can dance bachata too. But in the school or in Germany in Jeanral, I'm known as a Kizomba teacher, not as a salsa or anything else. And in the region where I live, ⁓ 98 % of people, they learn from me. Wow.

(42:52)

You know, even my direct competitors today, they were my students. But when we broke away, we didn't break away in the bed when they told me, no, we learn enough from you. Now we want to take our journey. Yeah. And I'm like, that is great. But a lot of people see that as a no, he's stealing from me is going to do this. No, I don't see it like that. Because before me, there was somebody else. Exactly. Yeah.

(43:20)

So I cannot say that, this belongs to me. Don't, don't, don't, no, this is wrong. People should change their mentality. And the biggest problem I found here and in Germany, there's always this clash with people. And I don't understand why. Victor, in my city, in Germany, we are over 300 and something thousand people. Dancing scene maximum, I would say to you, is about 400 people.

(43:49)

Wow, not a lot, is it? Yeah. It's not a big number. Let's be honest about it. That is not a big number. But because of our location where we are, people travel from left, and center to come to us. In my school, we have a party we call Salsa Kiss. Yeah. This is a party. We have three rooms running at the same time. And I guarantee you, every single month, we have over 600 people there. I'm not

(44:18)

making myself be, but that's the reality of our school. But it's not because of the people we have in our city. It's because the people that are coming to us, because we have a good reputation. And everybody knows that, you know? And it just goes to show, when you put your head into it and you find your small balance, you know what? This is my way. Stay by your lane. It will work. It will work.

(44:48)

A lot of people try to knock us down. They couldn't. They couldn't. Because our concept was the first one and people know about it and people just stay like that. That is Germany. In Germany, I learned one thing. They're very, ⁓ I wouldn't say difficult, but they are very straight people. Okay. Let's put it like that. Straight talking. Straight talking.

(45:16)

straight in business, straight in everything else you can think of. ⁓ But the reality is that when they focus on something or you do something they like and they feel like part of it, I swear to you, they don't go anywhere else. And this is what the owner of the school told me. He said to me, if you want to last year,

(45:44)

make sure whatever you do, people stay connected to you. Because when a German person said to you, my friend, Victor, believe me, he meant every single letter of that word. You can call somebody in the middle of the night, they're going to get up to come and assist you, whatever that issue is. And that I found it amazing. Because here in the UK, I have so-called a lot of people I know.

(46:12)

I love and ⁓ I used to think a lot of people were my friend. But when I needed help, I can count on my fingers. I really can. And to me, that was just no. No, I cannot. I need to separate everything. Yeah. There is Miguel. There is my private life. This is my business. You know, this is the people I hang around with. Yeah. When I see everybody, I try to be nice and respectful to anyone.

(46:42)

because I want people to treat me the same way. Apart from that, I know exactly which steps to take and where to go. So I wanted to ask you, so obviously you talked to us about you being the first and obviously Iris and Quinda. So with what you're talking about now and you're saying that some people didn't like what you were doing, yeah? But in the UK then, what were some of the challenges that you faced?

(47:10)

with implementing Kizomba over here. Like I said, the very first problem was nobody wanted to take a chance on it. That was the first problem. It took a while for people to kind of stop. I wouldn't say people promote to start opening to it. ⁓ But then when the boom happened, everybody wanted to a piece of it. I'm a one person. ⁓ I was one person. So obviously,

(47:40)

Cannot take everything. I wish I could ⁓ but I couldn't so that opened up opportunity to a lot of people Yeah, you know even so-called they learn Like perfect example there. I'm not gonna mention his name That was a guy when I used to teach in Birmingham every week, right? He came to me three times Only three times one time to do the beginners like I'm time to do improvements class three times

(48:10)

goes to Marlene at the end of the class, ⁓ can you show me these or can you explain this to me? We have a philosophy, me and Marlene back then. Once we finish the class, we don't teach anymore. We want to relax. We want to enjoy the connection with people. But we always refuse to do that. Unless you want to do private class with us, hey, after the class is our time. Let's just calm down, enjoy it. If you want to dance, let's go and dance.

(48:39)

But please don't come with a question about the step and blah blah blah. My land finished talking to this person. Come running to me. We have a problem. And I'm like, problem? With what? This guy you see over there, he's going to start teaching.

(48:58)

The way he's moving, the way he's talking, the way he's trying to find out information, he's going to become a teacher. Somehow, somewhere he's going to teach. I promise you. One week later, he set up this Kizomba class.

(49:15)

And I'm like, no way. Victor, you take three classes from us and you already become a teacher. How? For me to be a salsa teacher, took me one year. Well, you were saying about all the practice. One year of practice. ⁓ after my one year, I have to go to an exam. Yeah. You know, I have to pay for the examiner to check every single thing I do for two hours. And

(49:44)

You have this thing in the UK where people go to class as soon as they little bit feeling comfortable. OK, I am a teacher. I'm going to set up my own business. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do why? Mm hmm. Do you understand? Yeah. And like I said to you, I want to say this in your podcast because I know this is spreading the message. Some people not going to like what I said for sure. But the truth of the matter is this. We need to have respect. Don't look at it. Kizomba like I'm going to have fun.

(50:15)

is more than that, especially for us from Africa, is our culture. You know, you want to come into our culture, that's okay, no problem, please do it. But remember one thing, respect is important. ⁓ Don't take advantage of it, you know? Yeah, but then there are going to be some people listening or watching and they're going to say, well, I do want to come and just have fun. I just want to go have fun. That's what I want to do. the day, yes, this is true. At the end of the day.

(50:43)

But what I mean by that is don't take the steps, as you say in English, you need to start crawling before you walk. ⁓ So don't jump the process. It's a process. Make sure whichever teacher you have, learn properly. OK. Take your time. Yeah. Go to your teacher, hey, listen, I think I'm feeling comfortable about myself. I feel good about this. I think I have enough knowledge, blah, Speak. Yeah. And I'm pretty sure your teacher is not going to say to you, no.

(51:12)

Get out of here. I'm sure of that. Whoever that would be. But if you do it that way, what's the problem? There's no problem. People need to be smart about these things. I know in London there's a lot of competition. London, UK. And this has been going on for years. It's not now. This has been going on for years. In the South, it's the same thing.

(51:39)

Now with Bachata is the same thing because Bachata right now is the biggest thing in dancing right now all over the world. It's the biggest one. Bigger than salsa and Kisombo put together. know, so using that this so-called competition just takes you nowhere. Takes you nowhere. I promise you. You know. And no, this is good. Good talk. I know you're being a...

(52:08)

You've been direct and you want to get the message out. So that's what we want. So that's cool. I mean, ⁓ like I said, I don't want to make myself the biggest guy in the room or whatever. ⁓ I was the first to lay down the carpet that people taking advantage today. Yeah. Like Rico told you on his interview, Rico started dancing because of me. OK. Yeah.

(52:31)

I think he taught me that. yeah, yeah. Even when we were speaking, I looked. confirmed it. That's right. yeah. Rico came here. He used to come to my salsa classes and to all my events. I took him around. I went to Robert and say to Robert, for example, look, I have this new guy. He's pretty good. If you think I'm good, he's even next level level. Robert didn't want to take our chances, you know? And I used to run a Wednesday night here.

(52:58)

When I was moving to Germany, were working for Rico on that Wednesday night. So when I was leaving, he was the one who took over my night. And a lot of people don't know this. They think Rico Suave and I just started like that. Rico Suave and I started when I left because he took over my spot. OK. You know? We're learning. ⁓ But for example, if I'm going to be an idiot about it, I couldn't stop picking up and blah, blah. Why? Yeah. Why? ⁓

(53:27)

You know, it just doesn't make sense. People need to be smart and understand how the things work. It's a small thing. People think it's a massive thing. It's not. It's a small thing. But when you go and try to coordinate between yourselves, it works 10 times better than going separately. absolutely.

(53:52)

interesting man. It is. I'm not lying. I'm speaking for experience. Yes. I travel around. I see this and I understand it. Yeah. Till today, people still fighting about it. And I don't understand why. Yeah. I don't understand why. You know? ⁓ And the other side of the thing is, is I can understand it's a business. We need to run a business. I can understand that. Yeah. But have a proper plan. ⁓ Don't go into competition with

(54:22)

Anybody else is just because okay, I don't like this guy. So what I'm gonna do my mission is to create the obstacle for this guy And that is something I don't agree with Yeah, and if we have millions of people hey do your thing I do mine we don't let's be honest about it. We don't Right, although the London is a massive city. Mm-hmm, but we don't But in London, you have five or six event every weekend. Yeah

(54:52)

And none of them is packed. ⁓ Depends. I'm not going to say nothing. I'm just going to say that because I've been to very few ones. And to me, it is appointed. OK. Yeah. Because people still focusing in having this competition thing instead of focus. What is better for me? Let's work it together. I give a little bit. You give me a little bit. We put it together. Everybody wins.

(55:22)

Perfect example, I was in an event last Sunday. The room was packed with promoters from the area where I was working. There was at least eight promoters in that event. ⁓ Eight. He's on the promoters. Yeah, so all promoters in their nights. Exactly. And I spoke to the person. The person said, no, what I did is I speak to everybody and I told them, you support me?

(55:51)

I will support you back. In the middle of the party, she stopped the party, pick up the microphone, name one by one, and say, thank you. This is this person. He does this, this, this, this. If you want to contact him, this is his information, da, da, da. In the middle of the party, and the room was packed. And that is the way forward.

(56:16)

You understand? People need to change a little to make it work. Well, they're certainly hearing you here. ⁓ I'm not being a boss. I'm just passing the message. is here. The message is here. ⁓ We have to be honest to ourselves. Yeah, yeah. We have to be honest. And it's good. It's good that we love what we do. It's good that we have this fighting about it. But it works 10 times better when we are unified.

(56:45)

Hey, I couldn't have said it better. Absolutely. All ⁓ right, man. So I think we've got some of your experiences about Kizomba and Kizomba in the UK as well. All right. So let's get personal then. Let's get personal. right. This is the chocolate side. No, no, it's all good. I want to... So obviously you used to live in London. I did. Yeah. So you know this city, but you're in Germany now. Yeah. And you...

(57:14)

talked about your students in Germany. So I want to find out from you then, what's the difference in the Kuzomba scene, Germany and London? How do they compare?

(57:27)

As I said in the beginning, the German culture, ⁓ they are very close. Let's put it like that. But when they really want to learn something, they will move mountains to learn it. And that is the biggest difference you have between the German culture and the dancing culture here in the UK. For example,

(57:53)

I used to have until one and a half years ago, a student. They live. was a father. Well, okay. A husband, wife and his son. Yeah. They used to travel every Monday for two and a half hours to take classes with me. Wow. And drive back to the city. Okay. For seven years. Wow. Wow. Seven years. Victor.

(58:23)

drive in two and a half hours every day, just make your calculation. How much is that? It's not about the money, but just to give you a concept of when they really wanna do it. And that is the beautiful thing of being in Germany. Whereas here in the UK, you don't get that. You don't. It doesn't matter how loyal the person will be with you. ⁓ Maximum I give you is one year.

(58:51)

change one year and that's the biggest difference. Apart from the money side of the thing and all that and then what helps in Germany also is the culture that in Germany regardless what you do you need to go to school to learn. Yeah. By law. Okay. Okay. Okay. Do you understand? Yeah. It's not an open thing. Yeah.

(59:18)

I joke with them all the time and saying to them, listen, this is not in university. Yeah. You're not in the school or you're doing maths, like two plus two equals four. It's not like that. Dancing is what you feel. But yes, you need to understand it. Now, the transition from understanding into the feeling is a process. It doesn't happen just like that. You need time to process that. know? ⁓

(59:47)

That's interesting. but when you have people who are willing to do that, believe me, I could pick up my phone and show you a photo. For example, I had our structure in our school is like we have a beginner. So beginners, we do like beginner one and two. And then directly from that, we have a group we call the house power. Let's call it improve us. In our improve, the rules is very simple. You need to be there for three cycles, ⁓ minimum.

(60:17)

and then you go to the teacher, the teacher will tell you if you're good enough to move on to the next level or not. I'm not kidding you. In this group, I have more than 60 students. Not one changed the group without asking me. OK. And he just show you the mentality of these people. Yeah, yeah. You know, and that is something you just can't put money into it.

(60:47)

And you know, I've heard it before as well, Europe, so you know, well, I'm hearing about Germany now. Somebody else has mentioned, I think maybe Poland as well. Poland is the same thing. Yeah. High level of dancers as well. That's because of the schools. Because of the schools. Yeah. Because in Europe, the system is designed that you want to learn something, you need to go to school to learn it. Yeah. And people respect this process.

(61:13)

For example, here in the UK, you have somebody goes into a bar, make a deal with the bar. I'm going to do my classes here.

(61:20)

There's no structure. You don't know for how long. And then when it works, it works. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. In Germany, no. You cannot set up a school without registering everything. And you need to make it clear to the state, this is what I'm going to do. This is how it's going to work. They need to know that. Anyone. You don't see clubs doing classes. They do pre-party workshops. That's no...

(61:48)

But regular classes, you need to have a school for that. And that system helps a lot. It makes a big difference, really. So you think that over here we could incorporate that? think that is that? No, but you think that's the way to go in the UK? I believe so, yeah. If you want to really increase the level, yes. Because this thing about open class, when people come, when they feel like.

(62:18)

dropping, pay, whatever. Yeah, it's good for the money side of the thing. This is true. It's very good because people don't feel obliged to anything. I can go whenever I feel like. But in the long run, that person is not developing. Let's be honest about it. yeah, yeah. Whereas when you have a contract, know, these three months, I signed this contract for this X amount of hours, for this X amount of money.

(62:48)

You're going to come anyway, aren't you? You're going to make you it. Need no more. I don't say I paid my money, man. I'm coming to class. Exactly. And that is one thing, actually, that... ⁓

(63:01)

pisses me off a little bit with German because they pay. It is within their right. Sometimes you have only one person turn up for one special course. They want you to teach them that hour because I pay for this hour. One or two, it doesn't matter. That is the slot. You got to do it. In the beginning, I find it hard to adapt to it. was like, I'm not coming for three persons. No way.

(63:28)

You don't know how much stress I had with the directors of the school. This is not England. We're not like that. Here we have to respect over and over and over. So even for you then, you saw that how it can be better as well because you saw that if there's one person, have to. I'm not going to lie to you. I wanted to do it here. I really wanted it. ⁓ But the problem is because the system in dancing,

(63:57)

It is not like that. There is no way you can put people. Now I see the few people trying this six weeks course. Yes. Go and ask them how long do people stay? OK. OK. OK. You know? Yeah. It's just the way the system is being designed from the get go. Yeah. And that create all different narrative. Yeah. Somebody like me, you're in the scene, you want to create something different. The first thing people ask, why? Yeah.

(64:26)

That's the truth. Why? Why should I pay you, let's say, 100 pounds for four hours of training? Why? As an example. Yeah, absolutely. You know? So, because I know you travel a lot. Yeah. Yeah, so not just Europe, you travel. So with this, what we're talking about now, what have you seen? Is it similar in the USA, Singapore, Thailand, know, it was all over the place now. Or that is the...

(64:56)

a like the UK or was it a mixture of two? It's a mixture of two. Yeah. Let's put it like this. A few places in South America, for example, in Argentina, ⁓ South and Tango are pretty strong there. And there to learn Tango, you need to go to school. So it's easier that way. Whereas for example, in Thailand or Singapore, it's totally different. It's almost the same system like, okay, I go to the bar, I made a deal with the bar.

(65:25)

I run my business, people will come. You see what I mean? It depends where you are, the structure we have in Europe compared to the UK, believe me, if the UK can change that. ⁓ Back in the days, UK used to be in the capital of southern Europe. It's no longer anymore. It's not because we don't have great teachers here. Don't get me wrong. It's just the system.

(65:55)

He's not allowed people to develop.

(66:01)

That's the reality. And then with the social media thing, it just changed everything. It changed totally. mean, totally. I don't mean this in a bad way. Don't get me wrong. But for me to learn from a great dancer, I just go to YouTube or to his channel. I made a subscription of whatever long. I'm learning from one of the greatest.

(66:29)

But you can do that because you can pick things up easily, right? ⁓ Not everybody can do that. ⁓ You know what mean? That is true, hey, everybody has this gift. That's mine. That's mine. You know, unfortunately, when it comes to dancing, my brain seems to work super fast. You know, like I can see something ⁓ within seconds just by looking at it.

(66:58)

Two minutes later, I transfer into my own thing. And that's the other thing people need to learn. When you learn for a teacher, guys, I'm talking to you now, not to Vick talk to you. ⁓ When you learn for a teacher is great, but remember one thing, the teacher don't need a copycat. You need to understand and process the thing the way you are because we are different. We feel different. We're not the same.

(67:26)

The way I learn is not the way you will learn. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, different learning styles. You know? Yeah. So stop this thing. I need to be like my teacher. That thing drives me nuts. Yeah. You know, you don't need that. Our DNA is different. You know? Like, I have a concept I use in my beginners class. This is another thing in German. They don't like this changing partner thing. In German, they find it really weird.

(67:55)

change your partner. Like during the class. Yeah. If you say to someone, ⁓ okay, we finished the first part of our sequence. So please let's change one. Okay. ⁓ my God. It's like you grabbing a knife and stabbing it in the stomach. like, In the beginning, the fights I had, I could not understand that in the beginning. Me being with my open mentality, it took me a while to actually process that, to understand the way they think and why they do that.

(68:25)

They have a thing in Germany, like my dance partner, let's call it like that. Your dance partner is your dance partner, nobody else's. Believe me, there's no like in a personal level, it's just like we are dancing partners. That's it. It's us and that's it. The rest really doesn't matter. Sorry, just a quick question. So what if you go to class one week and that person, one of them's not well or something? That brings me to the next one.

(68:54)

Yeah, it took me a while to adapt to this concept and then in the end I like I need to find a way to make these people understand that it's not about the two of you. It's about the whole group is about the experience of when we talk about his own. It's not about a choreography. It's about the feeling, the energy, the connection. Yeah. But you need to know these things and you will never get it while you're dancing with one person.

(69:23)

Full point. There's no ifs and buts around that. Point. Fetish. Like we say in Germany. You know? So I start pushing this in the school and I told the director of the school, look, I can understand your culture. I can accept this is the way you guys work. I can. All of that is OK for me. But to understand the reality of Kizomba , to understand how Kizomba is supposed to be down.

(69:53)

You need connection. You need to learn how to feel. You need to adapt to different energy because we don't have the same energy. And the only way you're going to do this is by dancing with a different person. Then you learn to adapt. ⁓ we have to put this as a contract in our school. ⁓ wow. Really? Honestly.

(70:20)

It took a long time for the Kizomba people to accept that rule. We fight. Actually, one of the students, I have to ask him to leave the class because he didn't want to end it like, I'm not going to do that. I'm like, you know what? This is not a discussion. OK? ⁓ Think like this. When you go to university, you have your subjects. You don't pick and choose which one you're going to do. They tell you, this is what you got to do. You take it. You learn it.

(70:50)

Process it, do what you need to do. So here we're doing exactly the same thing. It's not because you pay, okay? I give your money back if you want, but for you to learn from me, this is my rule. Take it or leave it in front of everybody. A lot of people think I was being too aggressive and I'm like, no, you guys need to learn one thing. This is not a fashion thing. it's a new thing, let's go and learn because that's not what they were thinking.

(71:20)

And I said to them, first and foremost, this is my culture. So I need you to respect my culture. one, before we talk about anything, number one, respect this. Second, you want to learn from me? I'm happy you can come here, but there are rules. And my rules, they're not going to be broken by nobody. That is what I can offer you. In exchange?

(71:50)

You pay me for my services. If you want to do that. If you don't want, you're more than welcome to leave. I did that, director of the school was in panic. Called me next day into an office. ⁓ you shouldn't say that. Now we're going to lose students. was hey, is it either this way or there's no other way.

(72:13)

Very German. Direct, right? I'm sitting here, ⁓ over 10 years later, we still running the school. School is still going on.

(72:25)

Let's be honest. Because if it didn't work, I wouldn't be there. Yeah, 100%. For sure. 100%. So please tell me. 100%. Like I said, it's about vision. It's about you seeing something, look at it, think about it, and find a way to connect to it. Once you connect to it, believe me, it may be hard at beginning, but in the long run, you get that.

(72:54)

Yeah, I do workshops, for example, in Germany every first weekend of the month for the last 10 years. That's the weekend I don't travel. It doesn't matter what I go. I'm in my school because it's my beginner's workshop. Today, we used to do promotions like right now. I don't need to because people know.

(73:16)

Boom, first weekend of the month. The all year round they know the first weekend of the month is the Kizomba Crash Course. Six hours training. Three on Saturday, three on Sunday. For 10 years we talking about. That's really amazing how you've done that. And that's reputation, word of mouth, people experiencing it. Exactly. So well done to you. I try my best. Yeah, no, it's great. ⁓

(73:44)

It is. ⁓ Like I said, going to Germany came out of blue. ⁓ me be honest and open about it. At the time, I was going to a really down part of my life personally. The business was not going the way I wanted it. And I was getting stressed out. And like I was talking to you while we walking here, and I told you, this stress of London, it drives me nuts.

(74:14)

In London, you have to run ⁓ every single hour. There is no time. can't ⁓ You can't. I'm here on holidays for one week. I'm already stressed out because I'm going A to B, left and right is like God. ⁓ You know? To me, when I moved to Germany, this specific school, they just wanted me to go there in the beginning, like every three months to do it.

(74:43)

Like we do a special event. I go there with Marlene, we teach. In one year, we did like four events every quarter. The year after, they saw that the number was growing and the school also took a decision to make a new building. They built up a bigger studios and all that. But we sat down and we talked about it and they said, okay, come for three months, see how it is, analyze it for yourself. If you like it, hey, if you don't like it, you can go.

(75:13)

And we continue with our every quarter thing. You come and do your thing and go, you know. And at the time I had the option to go to Sweden, Italy, back to Portugal, which was not a place to go for business like that, like this. And ⁓ then Germany came out of the blue. So once I have Germany, all the other three options, just like, okay, you know what, leave it here. Let me go and try it. I have nothing to lose.

(75:43)

You know, yeah. And frankly speaking, till today, it was the best decision ever. Yeah. Like I told you, I have my balance. Yeah. Victor, if I don't travel, it doesn't affect me. And I don't mean this in an arrogant way, it's not. It's just that have the peace of mind that you know everything behind you is settled, it's all in place. You don't need to stress about it. Yeah. Yeah.

(76:13)

what comes in front, you have an option, yes or no. Everybody wants to be there, so it's great that you've got your For sure. Great that it works. took me a long time to get there. Don't get me wrong, it was hard work, yes. But in the end, like I said, everything behind me, it's okay. No, it's good. I've been here for a week. I don't need to worry about anything in Germany. Anything. And that's great because you travel all over the place and that's...

(76:42)

Taxing in itself and it's hard but if you found your balance with the way it works then we're happy for you I told you like in German I have time to go and play basketball. Yeah, I have time to go and train the kids Which is never in my head. I thought once while I was leaving here that I would have time for that. Yeah You know my knee time, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah Seriously

(77:09)

He's found his balance, people. ⁓ He's chill. He's chill. ⁓ It's important, ⁓ whatever we do, you need to find the right balance. It doesn't matter what. No, absolutely. Absolutely. So if you stay in this business, hey, you got to get that make. Well, yeah, well, that's one I'm going to ask you about in a moment. ⁓ But all right. So man of many talents in terms of dancing, salsa, bachata, Kizomba , and probably other. It was ballet you talked about at beginning, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah.

(77:36)

Wow, yeah. Well, I didn't take it. Yeah, yeah. Like I said in the beginning, he was predominant girl stuff. Yeah. Like, ⁓ Yeah, yeah. I'm a man, right? ⁓ I'm a man. ⁓ But all right, so you're talented in those areas there. Then you move on to teaching and with, you you're talking about the results that you have with your school, which is great. But apart from those things, you play basketball or this stuff as well. But then I want to talk to you about this festival side.

(78:05)

We don't have to talk about it long, but I know that you mentioned something around Sabura Festival. yeah. Yeah. So talk to a bit about that and how you got involved in that. Well, Sabura Festival, basically, let's go through the steps. So first of all, the name Sabura. Sabura is a word from back home for me, which is Guinea Bissau. And it means something like sweetness. You're going to have a

(78:35)

Joyful moment. You can share with your close one and stuff like that. So let's just leave it like that. So basically while the business was booming in Germany, the idea came of let's try to do something different. The school didn't want to do it. Let's be honest. Number one, because of the logistics, which costs a lot of money. And ⁓ the owner of the school

(79:03)

was like 50-50 about it. And I said to him, no, listen, we're going to do this differently. It's your school. Yes. You know your finances. So go and sit down with your partner, ⁓ work out a number. It doesn't matter what, work out a number and just say to me, Miguel, this is my number. Whatever you give me, I'm happy to work around that.

(79:32)

Why? Because I have my contacts. So ⁓ the idea was started like that. And he was like, yeah, but it's so expensive. This is so expensive. I'm like, that's what it is. For you to get somewhere, you need to invest. Yeah. Think about when I came here first.

(79:54)

look where we are now. We're two and a half years after I arrived in Germany. Then we decided to make the first Sabura Festival. So he gave me this budget, which I was really no German being German with numbers, they don't mess around. They calculate every single second of it. So ⁓ the first one came after juggle around and put a little bit of my money inside to create something.

(80:23)

And then they saw the good or positive reaction of people. Then the schools say, okay, you know what? Let's keep it rolling. And that's how the idea started with Sabuda. So in Sabuda, basically what I was doing, I focused purely, in so-called today, traditional Kizomba , which doesn't make any sense to me. Kizomba is Kizomba and the others is the others. ⁓

(80:52)

Somehow amazingly people call these things traditional Kizomba . And I'm like, Kizomba is Kizomba . So if you look at our website of the event, for example, we have the Sabura Kizomba Festival. The slogan, it says, ultimate Kizomba experience. Because mainly the teachers I have there, they're

(81:21)

purely Kizomba dancers. I will have one or two from outsiders, but purely for the last, it was 2000 and 15, 14, 15. So we took in all the nineties, almost 10 years of running this apart from the time of COVID. So take that to the side. But yeah, so it's been like that. But this year, because we was not sure if we were going to do it.

(81:50)

purely because I have so many things going on at the same time. And I didn't have enough time to actually focus 100 % on that. But we decided to do it. Trying to, no, last year actually, we started last year. did like, instead of festival, we changed it to just a weekender. It seems to work fine. It was not a massive thing, it was a small one. To be frankly honest with you, I prefer when it's small because it's less stress.

(82:19)

You know, you can control stuff, but when it's so big and you have only two or three members of staff, it's a nightmare. It's a nightmare. So this year we changed it back to the festival again. But with only different that we split it in two. Like we have the Kizomba stuff or Kizomba people so-called and we have Uruguay kids because there's no way to run away from this thing. You can try as hard as you can.

(82:49)

Especially in Europe. In Europe, it's taking over everywhere. ⁓ Everywhere, believe me. You have Uduban Kids Festival calling themselves Kizomba Festival. And this is one of the biggest thing I've never understood. Till today. If you're gonna create a dance style, think to it. It's your Uduban Kids Festival. Why you have one of the biggest Kizomba Festival is all about Uduban.

(83:18)

but they're using the name Kazan. You understand? Yeah, 100%. Yeah. It goes without saying. ⁓ That's all I'm saying. It goes without saying. So yeah, yeah, Saburi is good. It's going to happen on the end of September this year. OK. So normally, we used to do it in wintertime in November. But the last two years, well, last year we changed it to September. We had a good respond. So this year,

(83:47)

We stick to the September date again, which is the last weekend in September, I believe 27 to 29. Check it out. Of September. Yeah. Saburak is on the festival in Germany. And if you want to come, this is my invitation. Contact me or DM me as you normally say on social media. Yeah. DM me. I'll work something out for you. Promise. The flights are very cheap, by the way. If you fly from Stansted Airport to my city, it's very, very cheap.

(84:17)

You have no excuse. You said it worked something out for you on this podcast. You've got it recorded. Yes. So ⁓ we work out the percentage. No problem. ⁓ But like I said, if you want to come, please come and try it. You can see for yourself. It's good. Yeah. Germany is a is a different country than normal. Yeah. You know, it's different. Germany is different. And one thing about it, by the way, is that on a Sunday in Germany,

(84:47)

no business allowed to work okay interesting nothing nothing at all and i mean zero the only places that are open is petrol station obviously and restaurants anything else out of these two things forget it used to be like that here many years ago many years ago and i find that very interesting that's good

(85:14)

That is good because they force you to take a break. Yeah, they force you to focus on the family Whatever you have going on, you know what I mean? Absolutely. Well, it sounds like you you're enjoying it ⁓ You're not missing London. No, but we some of us we still love London London's cool. London's cool. So does that as well? love London always gonna be home because that's what it all started for exactly. So there's no question about

(85:41)

And thank you. And thank you for starting Kizomba over here as well. I did my best. Like I said, for me to come here and express this, it's just to let people know before anything, think about the past. ⁓ There are people before you. For you to start whatever you're doing right now, somebody else lay down the work. That today, it makes it easier for you to just jump into the wagon and carry on some new stuff. Where do you hope Kizomba

(86:11)

What's the plan or what do you hope Kizomba is going in the future? Where would you like to see it go? That's a good question.

(86:20)

If we talk in size, it's already spreading all over the world. ⁓ So that side of the thing has been taken care of by himself. The problem I have, well, I wouldn't say a problem, the concern I have is that we not Jeanrate new dancers. We not. You know, I don't know why. really don't know why. But if you look at the scene, it's

(86:50)

crazy crazy crazy thing to see that there's no new blood into it. So let me clarify this we're because people come to Kizomba all the time but are you saying we're not creating dancers as in good that's what you mean yeah so people come in but no there are people don't get me wrong but if you want for example a good dancer yeah okay yeah there's very few okay let's be honest about it yeah but it goes back to what i said earlier yeah

(87:17)

is that people begin to learn, they get to a comfortable level. They think they're super good. And they stay on that point. They don't develop anymore. That's the point. Fantastic. No, no, yeah, no, I, okay, I get that. ⁓ Yeah. And then I would like you to tell our listeners and watchers your opinions on people new to Kizomba . Yeah.

(87:47)

what would you say to them? So someone's coming, they're new, you know, and they want to get the best out of it. But what would you say to those people to get the best out of Kizomba, really? Yeah. My advice will be for a start, welcome whoever that person may be. For a start, don't look at it just as a dance. Look at it as a whole. Yeah. I have an expression I use.

(88:15)

Kizomba is like a tree. We have lots of ramifications. Lots of them. You know? So for you to come into that, be prepared to have an open mind, to learn correctly. And the biggest thing is, don't stick to one person just because you like that person. Try different ones. Because everywhere you go, you will learn something new. I promise you that.

(88:45)

Yeah. So ⁓ for me, when I was doing my salsa training, that's what I did. I didn't stick to one teacher. And that becomes easier in my exams because I learned so many different things along the way. And it makes my learning process so quicker that when I was in my exam, that normally takes two hours. I did under two hours. The guy turned around and said to me, I don't need to test anymore because I see you have good knowledge and you have good mates.

(89:15)

You can watch videos. Yeah. You know what I mean? So my advice is that don't look at it just, ⁓ is a new thing or is a dance. No, try to understand it. There's two sides to it. There's the dancing part, which is the fun part, but also there's a cultural side of it. You need to learn that. I'm not saying learn everything a little bit. So you have something in your head that you know. You know? Yeah. But that is very important for newcomers.

(89:45)

Those two things. Absolutely. And maybe have fun as well. ⁓ Time will come. Time will come. Time will come for fun. For sure. 150 percent. I can tell you that. ⁓ you know, but if you focus that way, you learn quicker. Yeah. Believe it or not. Yeah. Because your mind is open. Yeah. And then obviously the beautiful side of it is our music. You can't take that away from us. The beauty of Kizomba is the music. So.

(90:15)

Music first, connection, all the other stuff comes afterwards. You heard that from an OG like we said before. Yeah, OG. It makes me feel so OG, no, but you know, it's with love, basically. is, it is. So Miguel, ⁓ where can ⁓ people find you, reach you, or DM you like you were saying before? What's your socials, man?

(90:40)

Okay, I just took down my one of my websites at the moment because I need to change it. So it used to be we love Kizomba.co.uk is down. ⁓ But apart from that, you can get me on Facebook. Miguel Kizomba Monteiro. I have two accounts there. Both with the same name. one in two or three one. Miguel Kizomba Monteiro full, which is full, obviously. And then you have the second one. Number two.

(91:09)

And then I lost, unfortunately, I lost my Instagram account. ⁓ actually, I'm on a process. No, I got a restart, a new one. Yeah. He's still building it up. 100 percent. Yeah. You can find me on Instagram as MKM the dancer. ⁓ I was talking to somebody this week, actually, and it told me you need to put like a ping thing on your Facebook account to see if people can.

(91:39)

Connect to you again because I had a big account and somehow he goes stolen. ⁓ wow. No, no lost stolen stolen and the guy was doing some Nonsense bitcoin sharing bladda da with this and got me in trouble with one of the big promoters here in the uk The guy just called me out of nothing. No, like yo Miguel what's going on? I'm like, do you mean? What's going on? No, you sent me this. I like and send you nothing and that's how I find out

(92:07)

but that was a week after I lost the account and he was like no you sent me this stuff I signed up into it now this guy's trying to steal my account big mess we were in the phone for like 30 minutes and I'm like dude I didn't do nothing I'm telling you I lost my account I don't have access to my account so yeah okay what was that what was it again so my account ⁓ please go and find me is ⁓ MKM the dancer

(92:35)

Okay. The new account. The new account. ⁓ And I'll make sure this time I protect it properly. So ⁓ yeah, there you go. ⁓ Thank you, sir. Thank you so much for the honesty ⁓ and all the wise words and ⁓ everything that you're sharing with us about yourself. And obviously, you know, it's important to know where because I'm the king from. Yeah. And I know that, you know, UK, you know, it's it's been here for a long time. Long time. And we don't necessarily hear about all the people.

(93:03)

that were there right at the beginning because it's involved ⁓ so long. But it's great to hear from you guys. And I know you wanted to come on and share that. So thank you very much. Thank you. I think I did my part. think you did. But before we go, we're to have a little bit of fun very quickly as we always do. Sure, sure. You know about the cards, right? Yes, I do. do. All right. Let's go. He has three of them. He three. You picked all the K. Left Ryan Center. Left Ryan Center. Producer, where should I choose? Left Ryan Center.

(93:38)

⁓ my days. ⁓ okay. The question is describe your feelings when you had your first Kizomba lesson. God.

(93:52)

Okay, ⁓ where should I start? Okay, we're gonna break it in twos, two parts. These are quick fire questions, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Being an OG like you said, I need to break it down properly because ⁓ to me, learning has two parts, okay? ⁓ This learning is almost, so I was learning watching my dad, my uncles and grandmas, all that dancing. That's how I start learning.

(94:21)

and it becomes obviously the input can be. But then when we look at the business side.

(94:30)

When I took the decision to actually gel what I know and the Kizomba as a dance, the feeling was like, frankly speaking, I wasn't too sure. I'm not gonna lie about it. I wasn't too sure. And I questioned myself over and over, is this the right thing you do it? know? Because you just, like I said, to me, Kizomba was still...

(94:59)

A cultural thing is more like my baby thing, like this here. But to open it up into that side, make it a business thing, it was tough. I'm not gonna lie, it was tough. I found it really hard, you know? But you're doing amazing stuff with it now. So cool. Producer, what's he picking next? You going to the producer again or you gonna choose yourself?

(95:28)

Actually. ⁓ Okay, we think that. All right. Okay, so the next. Which does teaching couples do you enjoy watching the most and why all my days? Yeah, that's you making it complicated. That's that's that's really. Yeah, there's lots of people who are great. But I guess with that question is more about. I don't know. I'll you answer it.

(95:57)

⁓ now you definitely put me on a spot ⁓ god ⁓ is there any specific category no I mean no because it's a tough cause you can see a very tough one like for example we can talk only on the show side of things mm-hmm or the teaching side of things okay okay or or just dancing you know what I mean just dancing just dancing

(96:28)

Do that.

(96:31)

There's like two or three persons on top of my head right now.

(96:36)

That's tough. man. This is hard. Yeah. you know, that's tough. This is difficult. I'm going to give you a pass on that question and I'm going to let you answer this. I tell you what. No, no. Let's do it like this. Let's do it like this. Like I said, for the show part, I found the amazing Nune Najla. Nune Najla. OK. Yeah, yeah. OK. For the show part. ⁓ These kids are ⁓ teaching.

(97:07)

I like the structure that is used by Afro-Latin connection. Okay. Yeah. You know, because it's kind of similar to the philosophy from the salsa and the other dancing skills. But as enjoyment, like dancing wise, then again, you need to split it in two because you can speak Kizomba and can speak Samba. You know what I mean? ⁓ So for the Samba part, there is a guy from

(97:37)

I'm not sure if I think Norway or Finland.

(97:42)

I'm not sure. But he's somewhere Scandinavian and it's called Carlos Canva. I love what he does. I'm not going to lie to you. He's one of the guys you look and it's like, yeah, for his size. Tall, Yeah. To be able to be so smooth the way he does stuff. Top notch. Honestly. We're coming for you, Carlos. We're hoping to have you here, man. ⁓ Hey, he was here.

(98:11)

working with Rico. Yes, yes. Yeah, it's it's it's a card. Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully. So he's he's a good one. Honestly, he's a good one. He's one of the few people that I look. I feel like, OK, everything he's doing is natural. It's not forcing. Yeah. Because you have those people that they want to do so much in such a short period of time. You force them. Why? You know how many acrobatic stuff I can do that.

(98:41)

Be yourself, authentic. And this guy to me is really authentic. Great. You know? Great. ⁓

(98:53)

Myself. Okay. Hey, check that out. Wicked. ⁓ I can be my friend, okay? No, you know what? I love that. I that. That's confidence. That's confidence. I love that. Myself, that's it. Yes. So you answered that. Yeah. It was a tough one. I'm not gonna lie. Sorry, man. wish I didn't. Yeah. You need to break that down properly because I feel sorry for the next person that's gonna do that. ⁓ I know, man. Yeah. Okay. I'll work on that one. All right. So my one, if you were trying to sell Kizomba to a friend,

(99:22)

who has not tried it and has not seen any videos, how would you describe it to them? Ooh. No, that's an easy one. You think? Well, I can just say one word. That is an I can just say heaven, really. Heaven, when you get the right... goes alone. ⁓ Yeah, yeah, heaven goes alone. But like I said previously, the beauty of Kizomba is not actually the choreography, the teaching and all that. It's the music. Yeah. So if a newcomer is coming in, the first thing I will do...

(99:52)

You say to the person, okay, I'm going to play you something. I want you to close your eyes. Listen to the music that he's playing. Find it in your heart. If you can follow that beat. Yeah. ⁓ Heaven. Basically what it is. There you go. There you go. Thank you, ⁓ Thank you. Honest. I love the conversation, man. Thank you.

(100:17)

Make sure we have you back another time at some point, sure, for sure. Anytime. You have my contact now. Always, man. Thank you for making time. I'm happy to share. I'm to share. think you're going out tonight, I think. ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah. We're going to say a little... Going out and go a little dance. Okay. Going out ⁓ and shake it, shake it, you know? I got to do it. I'm in London. I'm on holiday for the next two days, so... ⁓ And it's my little boy's birthday tomorrow, too. Shout out to him tomorrow. Hey. Happy birthday. Daddy loves you. Yeah, happy birthday. Say, yeah.

(100:46)

I gotta go and drink one or two ⁓ on his behalf, you know? ⁓ No, seriously, thank you, thank you. And as always, we want to say thank you to everybody for listening and watching this episode of Kizomba Conversations. As always, please let us know what you thought of the episode. Comment, like, share, subscribe. And like I always say, keep dancing and we will see you soon. Peace. Ciao. ⁓