Why Kizomba Needs Education: DJ Tó Costa on Kizomba, Semba, Basics & Culture

TAKEAWAYS

• Tó Costa has a rich background in Kizomba and Semba.

• Mastering the basics is crucial for all dancers.

• Education is key to improving dance skills.

• There is a need for standardized teaching in Kizomba.

• Semba is the foundation of Kizomba and deserves more recognition.

• Understanding music is essential for better dancing.

• Misconceptions about dance styles can hinder learning.

• Dancers should be encouraged to learn the history of their dance.

• Teachers play a vital role in shaping the dance community.

• Kizomba's global expansion includes various subgenres like Tarraxinha.

SOUND BITES

• "It's a beautiful gift."

• "Education, education, education."

• "This is my dance."

• "It's about knowing where to move."

• "It's an interpretation."

• "We need to speak about Semba more."

TRANSCRIPT

speaker-0 (00:00)

Hey Kizomba friends, it's Victor here from Kizomba Conversations. We are in Belgium at Kizomba Treat. Fantastic event. And I have bumped into a gentleman here by the name of Tó Costa. Some of you may know him, DJ, teacher, very knowledgeable about Kizomba, Semba, just music in general. So we have well, we're honoured to have him with us right now.

Tó Costa, how are you doing, sir? I'm good.

speaker-1 (00:25)

Great, to see you.

speaker-0 (00:27)

I know you're tired. We're at this festival here. I know you've been very, very busy, but can you stand to talk to me for a little while here? Yeah.

speaker-1 (00:34)

Of course.

speaker-0 (00:36)

Okay, Tó Costa So listen, man, seriously, so you've got so much knowledge around this topic. Obviously you're Angolan, it's your heritage. You've been doing this for a long time in terms of DJing, teaching. People know you around the world.

Alright, so what we want to do is just find out a little bit more, go a little bit deeper, find out a little bit about you've, and touch on some music, you know, Kizomba and DJing and just where you think Kizomba's going right now. This could be a long topic, all right. But for the first of all, the people that don't know you, Tó Costa, give us a little bit of history or introduction into who you are.

speaker-1 (01:10)

Hi, my name is Tó Costa. I was born in Angola. I lived most of my childhood in Angola. Then I moved to Portugal for a little while and then I moved to England, London especially. I was connected with music through my family, especially on my mother's side. And then I...

I got attracted to music in the UK and I became a DJ around 92, 93 and then I became a professional DJ from 1994.

speaker-0 (01:43)

Okay, great. So you've said you've had those connections there with well in terms of music with your mother mainly, yeah?

speaker-1 (01:48)

Yeah, my mother's side,

speaker-0 (01:49)

Your mother's side. Okay, so what were those connections? What were the musical influences from that from that?

speaker-1 (01:53)

My grandmother, she was a drummer on one of the carnival groups. So that's where normally I think the vein of music comes from there. And the whole influence of listening to music and dancing, especially with my, then eventually with my older siblings, dancing. was very popular to do like dancing groups when the whole break dance came.

in the 80s. So there was always music around in one way or another.

speaker-0 (02:19)

Okay, so music's always been there, right? Yeah.

speaker-1 (02:21)

Music and

speaker-0 (02:23)

So you've're very qualified to talk about this.

speaker-1 (02:25)

Apparently so

speaker-0 (02:26)

Apparently so. All right, and I just want to share share something Tó Costa So before we before we start, so you were my introduction to Kizomba. Yes. So what I mean by that is I had my very first ever class of Kizomba with you. Right. wow. So probably back in around 2010,

speaker-1 (02:44)

Mm-hmm.

speaker-0 (02:44)

11, that kind of time, when you've came over to the UK, to London, right? Around that time. Yeah. I went to a class.

A friend told me to come and attend this new dance we're doing. Mm-hmm. And it was you there, you and Eddy Vents.

speaker-1 (02:57)

me and my Mr. Vents. I call him Mr. Vents.

speaker-0 (02:59)

Okay, Mr. Yeah,

okay. And I don't you might not remember, but it was in West London.

speaker-1 (03:03)

In a Ealing somewhere. Acton. Acton. Yes. That's why also where is, I call him Mr. Mr. Tunde.

speaker-0 (03:13)

Yes.

speaker-1 (03:13)

Tunde also started at that time. I remember Tunde. Then Tunde became my boss at Chocolate Tuesday. Yes. For a long while. But I remember Tunde vividly.

speaker-0 (03:22)

Absolutely. Yeah, so for the people who don't, this is London talk. But anyway, right? So back then, and I absolutely hated that class that you gave me. Yeah, I'm sure it was the intention, right?

speaker-1 (03:32)

That was

speaker-0 (03:35)

That first class, I was like, what is this? This dance is terrible. And that was me with my ego thinking that I could do something. But then because we came from Salsa, right?

speaker-1 (03:44)

Yeah.

speaker-0 (03:45)

And you've think, okay, well, you could just pick this up.

But then you've realise even the basic move, I remember you very like, nope, you're not starting correctly. Nope, you're not listening to the music. I'm like, how am I gonna get through this class? Right? But I stuck with it. But yeah, I just wanted to share that I don't think you've changed since that time. No.

speaker-1 (04:01)

No, intention, one of the mistakes that normally people master from other dances, when they join another group, they believe they have to join at the same level and that's a big mistake. I think my knowledge of, for example, Salsa and Bachata music as a listener of music is very good, but I do not qualify as a Salsa and a Bachata.

DJ, what I think you should get at is the respect from other DJs that are professionals because if you've come from a Kizomba DJ perspective then you need to be respecting that level. The same applies to dancers, if you're mastering your craft elsewhere when you've come to a different craft you need to start at beginner's level to understand the basics. Absolutely. And then...

Will you come to my classes as a teacher? Will I mistreat you in any way, shape or form? No. You get my respect because you're also a teacher or a master from other culture or from other dance. But you need to start the beginners and that depends on your level of ego and how

speaker-0 (05:11)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (05:12)

much you want to learn.

If I go to Salsa classes I'm a total... I keep telling people that I'm the best Salsa beginner in world because I had a class with Eddie Torres in

speaker-0 (05:22)

Yes.

speaker-1 (05:23)

the Mambo Five star at Heathrow with Jean and Robert White. So I always tell people like I dance with Eddie Torres . I had a class with Eddie Torres so I'm the best Salsa beginner in the world.

speaker-0 (05:34)

Okay,

no beautiful. And speaking of beginners, right? I know this is something that we talk about passionately. I know we're we're here now, we've just come off of a great talk with Tó Costa here at this festival. And we talk about beginners, right?

speaker-1 (05:48)

Yes.

speaker-0 (05:48)

And the essence of this dance and the basic steps. And I just want to get your take for the people. And you've may have said this before on other podcasts, other talks.

But those basic movements, because you've just actually taught us just something just now. Why are we not getting those grounded in the dance? And why is the dance not moving as fast as it should be?

speaker-1 (06:06)

moving to where?

speaker-0 (06:08)

Well, just better dancers. Because then we're not grounding in in the basics. I I

speaker-1 (06:11)

I think the idea that the basics are not unified yet. They are not unified. Eventually they have to be unified and make sure so we can follow other dances because Semba and Kizomba, they come from our back gardens from the street and they come eventually to schools. And it's the first time that people... The question has been there for a while, how to...

to put in, to organize in a way that it can become science, whether it's possible or not. There's a lot of work. Master Petchu is working on this field for long time with so many people around him. And soon he's gonna release a book, which I had access to, which is an amazing book that will answer a lot of questions. But we need to ask Kizomba teachers, ask Kizomba people. I think we...

The dance itself is calling for a regulation. To regulate and to make sure that the basics are unified. Then, regardless of what you do, the basics of Kizomba, you should be able to know them as a teacher and as a student. And I think that's just manpower and willingness to do it.

speaker-0 (07:28)

Okay, okay. So you've're talking about all countries should have a basic standard of this is what it is?

speaker-1 (07:33)

There

should be an association that validates, that protects, validates, gives qualifications and training. So those who want to be teachers know what they want to do. It happens in Salsa, happens in Bachata, it happens in Zumba. You need to do training. We cannot just come from, wherever, from Angola.

from other places and just become teachers without qualifications.

speaker-0 (07:54)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (07:55)

I don't think it's acceptable.

speaker-0 (07:56)

Yeah, a hundred percent, right? So I know you've stepped away for a while, right, in terms of music. And

speaker-1 (08:03)

I need a break.

speaker-0 (08:06)

you've and you've come you've come back now and that Okay, ish, okay. And that issue is still there. You've seen that, it has not gone away, yeah.

speaker-1 (08:14)

No, issue, the issue, the issue maintains... I stayed away from Kizomba for five years and it felt like I left yesterday. When I came back, I found the issues, I've learned in the UK that we don't have problems. We tend to have issues. The issues of Kizomba are still there. They need to be fixed.

A lot of work here outside Angola and lot of work also in Angola needs to be done.

speaker-0 (08:37)

Okay,

so or okay, so an Angola as well.

speaker-1 (08:40)

Yeah, I think if we fix Angola, then it will have that domino effect where a lot of things will fix by itself.

speaker-0 (08:46)

Okay.

speaker-1 (08:47)

But Angola needs to fix what we want to do with this beautiful gift that is called Semba and Kizomba. We need to decide.

speaker-0 (08:54)

Yeah, and it is a beautiful gift. It is a beautiful gift. Do you think one of the things, because you've mentioned Semba there, do you've think that Semba is

So i very much so in the beginning when when I first started dancing with you, learning to dance around that time, I remember what would happen is that people would listen to Kizomba and they'll be happy and the dance floor would be kind of full. But the moment you've put Semba on, everybody runs for the hills. Yeah. Or used to run for the hills anyway.

speaker-1 (09:17)

Yeah, but because there was an issue with DJs, I think it was mainly DJs and teachers fault, that people were selling the idea that Kizomba was slow, slow into the level of Ghetto Zouk. Remember also Ghetto Zouk was becoming super huge in the Kizomba scene. People were selling the idea wrongly that Kizomba is slow and Semba is fast.

and the genre of music is not defined by that. What happened is that now you can see that lot of Angolan Rumba is also being played in the festivals and it's been highly accepted and a lot of slow Semba at the same level of Kizomba. These days actually we're playing slower Semba. What I find these days is that people are playing slower Semba and faster Kizomba.

speaker-0 (10:04)

So officers going around.

speaker-1 (10:05)

But then you can also see that there's a lack of education that people thinking that the slow Semba is something else. And then that the fast Kizomba is Semba.

speaker-0 (10:14)

Yes, yes, okay.

speaker-1 (10:15)

So there's an issue of education and understanding music before we can move.

speaker-0 (10:21)

Yeah. Okay. And how do we get people to understand music more? What would you say? education.

speaker-1 (10:27)

Okay.

speaker-0 (10:27)

Okay, so when you say education, what are they needed to be doing? Are they needing to listening to music, they need to be reading or

speaker-1 (10:32)

We need to start at the top. Educated teachers.

speaker-0 (10:36)

Okay, yeah.

speaker-1 (10:37)

Teachers. Education was manifested by the Labour Party when Tony Blair came. Education, education, education. And I think that's how we're going to move forward here. touching a little bit on politics, I think that's also the providers of this beautiful gift, which is...

Africa, Angola in particular, also will move on. Without education, we're still going to be the providers of raw material. And I think it's time that we start moving into also being the provider of the end side of... Yeah. We cannot be only the providers of raw materials. We cannot be the teachers and DJs only. We also want to be the promoters and the...

the investors. We want to participate in the whole side of the business

speaker-0 (11:30)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (11:31)

and that needs to be sorted only or will only be sorted by education.

speaker-0 (11:37)

Okay. Okay. And you've mentioned the teachers there.

speaker-1 (11:40)

Alright.

speaker-0 (11:40)

We know that teachers have a great responsibility when it comes to education, teaching the right thing, okay? Where do you think it kind of got lost where we have teachers now that, you know, somebody can call themselves a teacher without a qualification like you're like you're saying, but what was it never there? What what what what happened there?

speaker-1 (11:58)

The saying in Africa is that nobody from outside can come and destroy your house unless there is not an organization inside or there is one that will sabotage the interior. And I think we have self-sabotaged ourselves. We self-sabotage ourselves on the basis that we lost control of where Kizomba is going. And when Kizomba became big,

unusual like when we got accepted into the Salsa Salsa world we didn't come with the rules. Yeah. There was no rules. So if there's no rules we Kizomba was for a long time just getting to places and if you've can if you've have an attitude and say like look I'm a Kizomba teacher no one will ask you've for your credentials but then there was no there is no an organization or a group of people that can validate.

until today that can validate whether you're a teacher or a DJ. Everybody can be, if you want to be a teacher, you can become a teacher by tomorrow. If you want to be a DJ, can. Who validates this?

speaker-0 (13:01)

Exactly. Yeah.

speaker-1 (13:02)

This is a big gap that we have in the Kizomba world. And I think there needs to be some sort of association or regulator that say like you've participated in the course ABC.

Then you get the qualification and then you can become a teacher. Then we can provide better education to dancers. I think this thing will be healthier.

speaker-0 (13:25)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (13:27)

Wealthier and healthier.

speaker-0 (13:29)

Do you see when you go around I'm okay, but I don't know, I don't wanna So you when you go around and you've seen people teaching and you're thinking to yourself

This is not how it should be, right? What what what's going in in your mind? Are you thinking, you know, I should approach the teacher or are you just like, no, we'll leave it here? Because the reason why I'm asking the question is because that's your culture and you've kind of watched as some of it's happened, if that makes sense. Where maybe you could have stepped in and said, okay, right, I know you're talking about the qualifications here, but maybe you could have said, hey, this is how we do it in Angola, this is what you should be teaching,

speaker-1 (14:05)

It's a matter of choice. I've been very vocal. I'm actually more vocal privately.

speaker-0 (14:11)

Okay.

speaker-1 (14:12)

With access to knowledge. The door is open but it's very hard to teach people that know everything. Yes. And from the moment that people come with the race card, the Angolan card.

And so many other cards that I've been to Angola, I've been to Kizomba-Na rua, I've been to Quintal X, Z and Y, I've to... I've danced with a Bessangana, I've danced with a... Tó Costa, with Petchu, with Eddy Vents I've danced with Vanessa, I've danced with... As long as people continue to use that as a validation.

If people use that as a validation, there's nothing you can say because there is no board of control into yeah, okay, you're Victor you're a teacher where have you done your qualification? And then this qualification is it accepted by this body that controls Kizomba or Semba that control and this is what I think Angola can be very important

Because things at government level tend to work easier. Because governments have endless pockets. And they have endless people that can work. And I think there needs to be some sort of association that regulates, okay, you can do a course, yes. Have you attended this course? Can you teach level two? No, you've just done a level four. Teachers course.

speaker-0 (15:27)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (15:27)

Yeah, and we need to get to that level, otherwise we're going to be here going around and forever on this loop. And we're getting older. We're getting older. we, we, Mandela from Porto once told me we, in a nice way, we were a bunch of amateurs doing professional things when we started. And we went different directions.

and we bang our heads, but we returned and we sat down. Look, this direction is not right. We go back and let's try this direction. We went into the Salsa world, we were not highly accepted at the beginning. Today, we are on the same level. We sit at the same tables. We have proved our worth to be there. We have proved that we bought not only a great culture, but also a great gift.

speaker-0 (16:10)

But do you think that's the music?

speaker-1 (16:13)

Both. They both have to work hand in hand. And especially like with Salsa and Bachata, there is that super huge connection with slavery and colonialism. Our connection with Cuba is endless. As Angolan, we have a connection with Cuba that is beyond even sometimes other African countries that our brothers and sisters by

by birth and land. But we have this connection with Cuba through our history, which is amazing. And then when you get here, this Cuban Salsa is super huge, but super organized. We had a of students in, Angolan students in Cuba. Let's borrow the structure.

speaker-0 (16:54)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (16:55)

Cuban Salsa is structured. There's a structure here that you believe in. And then there's the Salsa one, Salsa two.

And then there's the Bachata, there's other ramifications of those dances that we need to sit down and see like what the others are doing. So we can organise our house as well. Whether we do it in Angola or we start doing here. Outside. Because our music has been to places that we never dreamt of. Absolutely. I've travelled the world.

I travelled the world I've been. I think I... I mean...

I've been to closer to 100 countries via Kizomba. And then if you break that down to places, I can drive comfortably in Spain, the whole of Spain, because I know Spain from Bilbao to...

speaker-0 (17:40)

And is that because of Kizomba?

speaker-1 (17:42)

We didn't have time for holidays. We know France very well. We know Italy. We know Germany. We know Russia. I've been to Mongolia. We started to exploit African countries now, but we've been to America, South America, And Kizomba have been to places that our biggest ego, which is our oil, our petrol in Angola haven't been.

Kizomba and Semba have taken us to those places. So therefore we need to organize it, sit down, organize it, protect and then allow others to share. Because it's a gift, a gift you have to share.

speaker-0 (18:19)

Yeah, it's it's it's a beautiful

speaker-1 (18:21)

And we have to share with the world.

speaker-0 (18:23)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (18:24)

And we try to do it, but we have to do it right way. Otherwise there's always those claims that it also belongs to A and B.

and then they dilute what it is that it is, the beautiful gift.

speaker-0 (18:36)

Mm. I know you don't have all the answers, all right, but how do you think we can get there? I know we're talking about it. Education. Just education. Education. Education.

speaker-1 (18:43)

Education,

then we organize ourselves through education. There is no other way to fix things. And if you look at places where they organize things, has to be through education. There has been educated people, academics mixed with non-academics. Because we have to balance.

academics with experience.

speaker-0 (19:07)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (19:08)

We have a high level of illiteracy in Angola. But those people produce art. They need to be brought to the table. They have to be brought to the table in a way that, okay, what's your experience? The experience also counts as part of the methodology.

speaker-0 (19:21)

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so lots of work to be done.

speaker-1 (19:24)

Mm-hmm.

speaker-0 (19:25)

Yeah. And it can be done, basically. It's just about willingness and

speaker-1 (19:30)

be done and I think there's people working, Master Petchu works for this art, like there's no tomorrow. Working on the book is being working on a book.

speaker-0 (19:40)

So Tó Costa, just sorry, so just for because some people listening will be new to Kizomba as well, or listening to this. So when you've say Master Petchu just for those people who might not know who is who is Master Petchu.

speaker-1 (19:49)

Master Petchu is, as the name says itself, is the master within our movement, not only here in Europe, also in Angola, he’s the one that is being responsible for decoding Kizomba and bringing to science and give a structure that's going to be released on a book around this year. But he's been writing this book for long time.

And hopefully other teachers will embrace the project.

speaker-0 (20:14)

Okay.

speaker-1 (20:15)

Books bring questions. If you write a book that there's no question, then it has been served the purpose. hopefully, excuse me, hopefully Master's book will bring answers and leave questions for other generations also

speaker-0 (20:29)

French.

speaker-1 (20:30)

within our generation and future generations to also adapt.

You fix certain things but leave gaps. And those gaps will open another door for another exploitation in terms of knowledge into what it is. It's doing a big job on Kizomba. Someone who used to do Semba. Someone who used to do other subcultures. Chianda from North of Angola is becoming the new dance within. There's Rebita.

Killipanda, all those things to be written about. Because we need to write our things so we can catalog what we do in a scientific way or just by Semba has to write the stories of our elderly that is normally passed orally. So our books can go to libraries and open people's minds and then make the world like a closer place. think because Kizomba break lot of barriers and

Yeah, and it opened a lot of doors.

speaker-0 (21:25)

A hundred percent. a hundred percent. So look out for Master Petchu's book.

speaker-1 (21:29)

Master Petchu's book is coming, there's collaboration, a lot of people are working with you've, lot of collaboration, lot of working by himself. I've been waiting for this book. And I hope people are reading less and less less and less and And then hopefully people have time to read with open eyes and open minds and Consume the knowledge, there's lot of knowledge there.

have the questions and hopefully you give that fever to go on the continued research.

speaker-0 (22:02)

Yes.

And hopefully it ignites some passion into people as well. Do you

speaker-1 (22:05)

Yes.

speaker-0 (22:06)

know what I mean? Yeah. We can start building the community even more and stronger, like you've say. So okay, so education, education, Master Petchu's book, try there as a start, and then obviously we could we can build. what I want to ask you actually, is around, you know, obviously you've mentioned Angola. some people in in Angola don't necessarily dance Kizomba. All right, all right.

What do you think then about Kizomba and Semba? Does somebody need to dance well? 

How can somebody dance Kizomba and Semba well is a question if they don't know the history? That's the question. Right? So the question is, do you need to know the history of the dance in order to be a good dancer? Does that have a direct impact if we're talking about dance as a whole?

speaker-1 (22:48)

Yes and no, but my question is how do you get involved in something at this level and you don't? Are you not curious about the history?

speaker-0 (22:58)

Everyone's different, right?

speaker-1 (23:00)

Yeah, but how do you do it is I I don't understand it the knowledge out there and you've you've find this beautiful let's say you've find this beautiful Salsa

You see the people dancing and you've fall in love with it. The minimum we want to know is like, where is this dance coming from? Where is the music coming from? There is basics. We don't have all to be experts. We don't have to be experts of the dance and music and so on. But come on, least we can know where Kizomba is from. Where is the music and the people that make the music? How can you contribute? What you're consuming.

speaker-0 (23:37)

So okay.

speaker-1 (23:38)

I'm curious to that level. It's hard for me to think that I go and buy a product and I don't know the history of it. But I'm curious to that level. If the music that he's playing at the moment is... who sings?

Where is it from? Because if it touches your heart, you'll want to...

speaker-0 (24:04)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (24:05)

I like the question but I'm trying to educate people to it and I'm finding it hard that you don't... you buy Adidas trainers and you don't know where it's from and you love it and you claim that it's your favourite trainer.

speaker-0 (24:19)

So

okay, so I you could be a great dancer and not know about the history. Yeah. But you've're saying why wouldn't you want to know about the history?

speaker-1 (24:28)

Why would you do a virgula and not understand where it comes from?

speaker-0 (24:31)

Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting one. Because

you have people that quite frankly don't care.

speaker-1 (24:37)

Yeah, but you've

speaker-0 (24:38)

You know what I mean?

speaker-1 (24:40)

are just walking around. It's like you don't know, you can look beautiful, but you don't know your family's story.

speaker-0 (24:51)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (24:52)

If you're in that thing that you don't know because they always know you've been adopted or something like that, that's another thing. But if you've had your mother and father, you've must ask like, ah.

How was my granddad? How is my... Your family history. So knowledge comes with that sense that if I'm using, want to... Even when I fly, if I'm flying one type of plane, I want to know. You need to have that kind of curiosity in you that I think it comes with education. How do you sleep with questions?

Yeah, with like question like, Semba tells you bonjour and you're like, and you don't, you don't find out what bonjour means next day. Oh

speaker-0 (25:31)

No, no I can't.

speaker-1 (25:32)

the day you go to sleep and you're fine with that.

speaker-0 (25:35)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (25:37)

How do people do that? And then you say like, I love this dance. I love this music. You don't know nothing about it. Odd. For me.

speaker-0 (25:43)

Odd.

So I I guess the sense is because you know sometimes people we don't got Urban Kiz. I I I remember one time somebody actually a previous guest, they they said they went somewhere, Angolan, DJ Galo actually. He said he was in a club one time and he was dancing, somebody asked him to dance, they were dancing, and then she sh the lady was like, Well, you're not dancing properly. you need to take some lessons. And

She she asked him, you know, where did you learn? And he's like, well, I've been doing this all my life. This

speaker-1 (26:13)

This is

speaker-0 (26:14)

is my dance. Right. The point I'm making here is that she didn't she didn't really know Kizomba, because she danced Urban Kiz. And she's dancing with him and telling him he's not doing the correct dance, if that makes sense.

speaker-1 (26:26)

I

think she was right. She was in Urban environment.

speaker-0 (26:29)

Yeah, but in her mind she thinks that's Kizomba, but it's not

speaker-1 (26:32)

Yeah, but

that's the issue that I personally have with the Urban movement. There is nothing wrong. I keep telling people I don't have issues with Urban as a dance. It's a nice, creative art. My issue starts when they start selling Urban as Kizomba Which it's not. But if I go to an Urban party at the moment, I'm a totally beginner. I think I know some steps because Curtis taught me like a few years ago.

Because I sat down with Curtis and I was like, show me what you do. It's a beautiful thing. Why can't it be separated? Because it's different. We had the same issue in Angola, Semba. When Kizomba came about, it's not Semba. We also could call KiSemba, for example. It created a new art. A new art gets a new formation and a new name.

With the Urban movement, why would they insist on having Kizomba as part of it? If it's big, because everybody says Urban is bigger than Kizomba. So why are you trying to attach to a smaller... Why

speaker-0 (27:36)

Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-1 (27:38)

are you still attached to the leg? To a lesser, less famous dance than yours? You want to detach.

speaker-0 (27:47)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (27:48)

But then Urban does the opposite, so maybe Urban is not as big as we believe it is.

speaker-0 (27:54)

It is. No, I just thought it was fascinating because they were at a Kizomba event. She

speaker-1 (27:58)

But that's what people for sell.

speaker-0 (28:00)

but she yeah, okay. She danced Urban and she danced with him and she's like, Yeah. You're not dancing right. Well he's like,

speaker-1 (28:05)

Yeah, but that's what they sell, especially in France. They sell Urban as Kizomba. And people still buy it and even when they find out, they still go. Yeah, and I don't understand why.

speaker-0 (28:15)

It's

just again, education. Right? It comes back to that. Okay.

Okay, we're gonna just shift quickly, all right?

speaker-1 (28:21)

To...

speaker-0 (28:23)

So let's just talk a bit about subgenres then. And one of those subgenres is Tarraxinha Alright. That gets played a lot in in in clubs. Alright. So you've tracked the global expansion of Kizomba, you know, including the shift to slower music or the slower music's there anyway, right? So from a DJ's perspective, what do people get wrong?

about the actual relationship between well well okay Semba Kizomba and tarraxinha so I guess Semba's first and it's Kizomba then Tarraxinha's there but what do people get wrong about those dances or misconceptions around those dances?

speaker-1 (28:57)

It

also goes back again to education and I keep pressing this button of education. What we do in terms of dancing in Angola is an interpretation of Semba into different styles of music that come about.

speaker-0 (29:09)

Let's pause and please say that again.

speaker-1 (29:12)

What

we do is an interpretation of Semba into different styles of music. What we do, we dance Semba. Tarraxinha, as we know, not Tarraxo or Tarraxou, all these inventions that are coming these days. I wish I continue to repeat, I don't understand why the Urban people tend to associate their names with Semba and Kizomba. Tarraxinha as we know, it's just...

It's not new. There's a different name.

speaker-0 (29:37)

Okay.

speaker-1 (29:38)

My parents' generation, used to dance Tarraxinha as an element of Semba. What happened when Tarraxinha came and became a divided item from Semba is that people were dancing Tarraxinha full time.

speaker-0 (29:54)

Okay.

speaker-1 (29:55)

But all these steps, the Tarraxinha step,

the ginga, the movement of the hips on the infinity sign. They've been there a long time ago. My parents and my parents' generation, they used to call it Shashoo-Shashoo. Yeah? Shashoo - Shashoo Yeah. It's been there. Then it disappeared and then reappeared again in a different format, a bit more...

clothes, I exaggerate. on the other side we also been dancing to slow music. We always had access to soul music from the Motowns and a lot of UK music from George Michael, Phil Collins which we call slow. Slow dancing is like what the Caribbean call, there's a name that the Caribbean call for that kind of a

movement of a slow, it's not reggae as such but there's a, I'll remember eventually and I'll send it to you, but there's the slow dancing in the figure of eight or the infinity sign has always been part of

speaker-0 (31:03)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (31:04)

the dancing. Whether you do continuously or you do twice on the left as a lead that eventually became Semba. So the dancing always been there, evolved.

But it's all a matter of education whether you want to do Tarraxinha full time on the song or you want to do Virgula, other elements, Retrocesso, then there's part of the music that tends to go slower and then you apply Tarraxinha. But it's not an element that used to, 50 years ago, 40 years ago, that used to be danced on its own. It's like equivalent of me saying, dance the whole song only on Virgula.

speaker-0 (31:37)

Yeah. Does it make sense, yeah.

speaker-1 (31:39)

It doesn't make sense. But these days, people are dancing in different ways. Tarraxinha is there, but our Tarraxinha from Angola, or our Tarraxinha from the PALOP speaking countries, is different to what people here in Europe do the Tarraxo, Tarraxo. I think every single year there's a new name that starts with Tarra. And it's just wrong.

speaker-0 (31:59)

Yeah. Sorry.

speaker-1 (32:01)

It's

just wrong that I think they have the ability of starting something new and name it according to their cultural experience.

speaker-0 (32:10)

Excellent, excellent. Okay. So all right. So there's all right, yeah. I get it, I get it. So

I just wanna finish on what you've said again. I know you've said it twice, but because it's important for people to understand that, because sometimes people don't know what they're dancing, believe it or not, right? Well, you see that there, all right? And again, that goes back to education, but it's about knowing where to move, the the spot the the the speed of the song, whatever it might be, all right? So just in closing, and this is part one, because

Tó Costa is gonna come back, okay? We've got so much to cover, can't cover it all here now at a festival, all right? So just getting a little flavoUr of the of the knowledge this man has, all right. So I wanna end on what you've said. So you've said it's an interpretation, so please finish off of that so people get that into their minds.

speaker-1 (32:54)

In interpretation, what I came up with a few years ago is the Kizomba umbrella. What we've done is we put, what I put it was Semba here as a dance. And then I listed the music that you can do an interpretation of Semba dance into that muse.

speaker-0 (33:11)

Okay, beautiful.

speaker-1 (33:12)

You can dance Semba to Semba, perfect marriage. Perfect marriage, made in heaven.

But then you can do an interpretation of Semba dance to Zouk music, to Kizomba, to Bolero, to Rumba, Angolan Rumba, Congolese Rumba, Rumba from Cuba. You can do to Salsa, can do to Bachata, you can do to Kompa, you can do to Zouk, Zouk Love.

That creates like a Kizomba umbrella even though it's not a dance for those because we also have to respect that Zouk has his own dance,

speaker-0 (33:43)

Yes.

speaker-1 (33:44)

Coladeira has his own dance, other styles Afro Zouk in certain countries have their own dance, Kompa has their own dance, but what we bring into the table is an alternative.

not an invalidation of what is there. Our respect for those dances and for those music and for those cultures is there and we'll never touch it. But there's the issue that we can also have an interpretation because through slavery and the slave trade, lot of our rhythms went to the new world and now they're returning.

The biggest returners were Kassav

speaker-0 (34:21)

Yes.

speaker-1 (34:21)

and other Tabou Kombo. You can hear the percussion of Africa. You can hear the percussion of Africa on the Batchata, on the Merengue, on the Salsa, on the Bolero, on the Brazilian music, on the Samba. And you can hear it. If you can hear it, we can Semba to it.

where is the new pair of dancing Semba in Paris. And this is the beauty of it, the interpretation of us, fraud slavery, around 20 million of Angolans went to the New World for slavery and slavery trade. And we're there. And what we can hear now is the descendants of those slaves producing music that we thought was lost coming back to Africa.

and making this our culture richer.

I'm not a very good person to say, but I don't think there's better music and dance than Semba in the world. For me.

speaker-0 (35:13)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (35:13)

And I can see the revisions of everything else that is done from it. If we mix that, ask the Angolans, the Bantus, with the Yorubas in the North, and I think we have produced God-given music to the world.

speaker-0 (35:28)

Yeah, and I'm very grateful for this, because you know, obviously we have Kizomba Conversations here. We're talking about Kizomba conversations, but Semba is where that started from, right? Yeah,

speaker-1 (35:37)

same by the matrix.

speaker-0 (35:38)

exactly, right? So we don't give I don't think we talk as much about Semba as we should do personally. That's just me, okay, on on podcasts or whatever it might be. And I think we need to speak about that more.

speaker-1 (35:50)

I think I can be bit greedy and reserved into that. The fact that whenever our culture goes out and expands, it tends to get lost. I don't know if I want to selfishly, I don't even want, don't know if I want Semba to be big.

speaker-0 (36:06)

Okay, and that's fine. Yeah.

speaker-1 (36:07)

Yeah, because when other people touch our cultures, they tend to dilute. They tend to

appropriate instead of appreciate. I don't know if I want the world. I'm selfish at that level.

speaker-0 (36:19)

Yes.

speaker-1 (36:20)

I don't know if I want to share Semba with the world because they haven't given me guarantees and the condition of the past is that everything that sometimes we throw to the world, it gets destroyed. And I don't know if I want to share Semba with the world.

speaker-0 (36:37)

Not sure if he wants to share Semba. No.

speaker-1 (36:39)

But just I don't want to lose it. Don't want to lose it. Yeah.

speaker-0 (36:43)

I want you to talk I want you to think about it, educate yourselves about it and not forget

speaker-1 (36:46)

But then on the other side, don't want to... I think it would be very selfish of us. Yeah,

speaker-0 (36:51)

Yeah, yeah. Semba's a beautiful, beautiful dance.

speaker-1 (36:54)

it's a gift and a gift has to be shared.

speaker-0 (36:56)

Yeah,

and if without Semba, there's literally no Kizomba, all right? So we are gonna end here just for now, as part one. As you can see, the man's got so much knowledge. We're at a festival, so we've got to run and do a class right now. So we'll be coming back to you with another episode with Tó Costa. Great more knowledge, lots lots more to learn. All right. So thank you very much for joining us. Tó Costa part one. 

No,

speaker-1 (37:14)

Thank for having me.

speaker-0 (37:15)

thank you. Just part one, we'll get you back, okay? And everyone, we'll see you soon.

speaker-1 (37:18)

I'll see you soon. Thank you very much