How I Built a Successful Kizomba Event

TAKEAWAYS

• Richard Voogt is a Kizomba teacher known for his passion and charisma.

• He grew up in South Africa and moved to the UK at 13.

• Richard was initially focused on sports, particularly football and rugby.

• He discovered dance while studying biochemistry at university.

• His first exposure to dance was through a friend's iPod with Latin music.

• Richard moved to the USA for work and continued to dance.

• He opened his first dance school in the USA, which was an organic process.

• Richard emphasizes the importance of community in dance.

• He returned to the UK to support his family and continue his dance career.

• Rhythm and Vibes Dance Company reflects his vision for a connected dance community.  Richard transitioned to dance full-time after feeling unmotivated in research.

• He set a goal to have 20 students in each class within six months.

• Building a community is essential for a successful dance school.

• Cultural differences influence the psychology of dance in various countries.

• Consistency and connection are key to sustaining a dance school.

• The pandemic posed significant challenges for the arts and dance community.

• Richard’s dance school received funding from the Arts Council of England.

• Teaching is about giving and helping students achieve their goals.

• Effective teaching requires understanding students' different motivations.

• Creating a fun and engaging environment is crucial for dance classes. Kizomba is a dance that fosters community and connection.

• Cultural diversity enriches the dance experience.

• Misconceptions about Kizomba often stem from cultural differences.

• Kizomba can be enjoyed without extensive knowledge of steps.

• The evolution of Kizomba is influenced by its growing popularity.

• Building a welcoming dance community is essential for growth.

• Traveling to teach allows for cultural exchange and learning.

• Kizomba's roots are deeply connected to African culture and music.

• Asking questions enhances the learning experience in dance.

• New dancers should embrace the journey and give Kizomba a try.

SOUNDBITES

• "Passion, energy, and charisma."

• "I excelled at academics."

• "I love the community vibe."

• "I had a great experience in America."

• "Dance is my career now."

• "I never thought I would dance."

• "I want to dance more."

• "I set a target for myself."

• "You have to allow them to be themselves."

• "It's about fun."

• "Dance is super important for communities."

• "You need to speak in very short bursts."

• "It's about giving."

• "It's about everyone else."

• "Kizomba is a familial dance, not sexual."

• "There's a huge community for Kizomba."

• "Kizomba is about connection and community."

• "Traveling to teach is the best thing ever."

• "The drum is the root of it all."

• "There's so much to discover in Kizomba."

• "Ask more questions of your teachers."

TRANSCRIPT

speaker-0 (00:00)

Hello, Kizomba friends, and welcome back to the Kizomba Conversations Podcast. If you're listening on Spotify or another podcast app, don't forget you can also watch our guests in action on our YouTube channel at Kizomba Conversations. We hope you enjoy the episode. Hello, Kizomba friends, and welcome back to another episode of Kizomba Conversations. As always, I'm your host, Victor. Today we are joined by a UK Kizomba teacher who can be summed up in three words.

Passion, energy, and charisma. Let's welcome Mr. Richard Wood to our podcast. Now, Richard, did I say the surname correctly?

speaker-1 (00:43)

Seven out of ten. All right. A for effort. Okay. A for effort.

speaker-0 (00:46)

A refer.

And in my defense it's a hard name to pronounce, right?

speaker-1 (00:50)

My whole life dealing with that. I'm not stressed. All good to go. Good

speaker-0 (00:53)

Fantastic. Well listen, welcome.

speaker-1 (00:55)

to be here. Thank you for having me. No problem I know we've been trying to get this going for a while, so we've made it happen. Great

speaker-0 (01:00)

Absolutely.

speaker-1 (01:01)

podcast ahead. Sure, a lot of intricate questions, diving in, prodding and poking.

speaker-0 (01:06)

Yeah, absolutely. Amazing. You see what I mean about the energy? Here we go. We're two minutes in and then we're going. But no, Richard, listen, seriously, thank you for being here. Obviously, you're UK based. I know you many years. I'm from the UK and I've been to some of your events. It's really great to have you here, talk to you about all things because I'm about to find out about your story as well. Yeah. Thank you. Okay, so with that, you know, our very first question is is just that, okay? Because good there's gonna be people listening, watching, don't know who you are. All right. And even the people that do know you.

Don't necessarily know everything about you. All right. So we start off with the first question. Just give us a bit about your background. you know, obviously you're from South Africa as well. So who is Richard? Yeah. No, brilliant. Well thanks for

speaker-1 (01:46)

For

hosting me here, nice to be here with you guys. And obviously, like you say, you spend so much time with your students and the socials, your friends at at these events, but you don't always get the time to have these deeper conversations, you know, running to the next dance, et cetera. So yeah, I think it's it's really an honor to be able to share a bit. And as you said, yes, very happy to be based in the UK in London. I think like I was I wanted to share that. Obviously, yes, I am from South Africa originally and proud to be from there and

of my upbringing and and that but also very grateful to be living in the UK. We have lots of great opportunities and stuff here. So but yeah I'm from South Africa, Cape Town. That's where I was born and got a younger brother. My parents we moved over to England in when I was about thirteen, fourteen. So my younger years were in South Africa. Yeah. And yeah just I remember as just a very like youthful, happy time. I think obviously I'm on the jet generation I'm

87 baby 97.

speaker-0 (02:46)

Okay. Okay.

speaker-1 (02:47)

I was still of the generation where it wasn't really so the internet was kind of coming in. I mean, we're in South Africa, so we're not getting that broadband. Yeah, that's it. And the mobile phones and all that wasn't so definitely like a proper childhood, you know, in the garden with the dog, yeah, that kind of stuff, running around, you know, with your friends and stuff. So very like fond memories, like naive childhood kind of thing. So yeah, super grateful for that, you know. And South Africa growing up, it was a lot,

A lot of sports, you know, you as a as a young person, you're encouraged a lot of sports. So it's interesting because as I mean, not that I remember everything, but you know, I don't remember being a dance fanatic. It's not like I went to dance school. And that's something that a lot of people often ask when they meet you as a teacher, or they see you because they're obviously impressed by your dancing skills and that. So obviously they often like detach you from from themselves in terms of wow, you must have danced your whole life. Yes. And quite in

Generally speaking, it's not the case. You know, we discover it later in life, etc. So for me as a young person, it was sport. I played a lot sport. And interestingly, with Kizomba being a palop dance and having also influence from Portugal, I actually have Portuguese family.

speaker-0 (03:56)

Okay.

speaker-1 (03:57)

So growing cousins and that. So growing up originally I played football, soccer. So goalkeeper, you know, with my height. So no, this is when I was like nine, ten years old. Yeah. Vasco da Gama, yes, which is a famous Brazilian team. So I played with them.

but then obviously when you move, so we moved from Cape Town to Joe Burg at one stage, and that's just natural families move for work and that kind of stuff. So when we moved to Joe Burg, then I moved into an area where it was more cricket and rugby area. So I played a bit of cricket, then I played a bit of rugby and that. So yeah, my youth was a lot of that, you know. And obviously it was a very interesting time growing up in South Africa at that time because 87 babies, so it's growing up.

with Nelson Mandela being president. So it's like a country with a lot of rejuvenation and hope and rainbow nation. So yeah, very like encouraging time to grow up in South Africa at that time, you know. Kind of very inspirational. Very great.

speaker-0 (04:48)

Yeah, you know, so yeah, really fantastic,

fantastic. sorry, so lots of things there, and so you were very active when you were young. Yes, there's of lots of different things, yes, yes all over the place. Yes. What was kind of your favorite sport?

speaker-1 (05:03)

So I think, I think I mean to be I I just love sport, any sport. Formula One, football. When I moved to England, obviously England's football crazy country. And I had hadn't I played a bit of football. My one grandfather supported Man United. So whenever I spent time with him, it was watching Man United. a lot of South African sport, Liverpool. So I was up against them. And then with my other grandfather, it was watching Formula Ones. Formula Ones. So

Was into cars and architecture and this design and art and that kind of thing. So we loved that's how we spend time together. So it's yeah, it's a sporty nation. We did a lot of that together, you know. and just like very active, very outdoors, you know, being in in the outdoors on the grass, in the garden, in the field, athletics kind of thing. So it's it's funny, yeah. It was just swimming, cross country, sprinting. I know that I remember in South Africa in school, if you wanted to play.

football, you had to play rugby, like it was just multiple, you know, just lots of ac activity. Yeah. You know? And it was interesting. Obviously, you have different culture around education and and youth in different countries. And in South Africa it was very, I think, discipline kind of in your youth and that kind of thing. So it gives you a good upbringing and sort of reverence, respect for your elders and that kind of thing. So yeah, that was kind of like the the energy and the vibe, you know?

speaker-0 (06:24)

And the thing is, another reason why I'm asking the question is because you you've mentioned some sports there, football, yeah, rugby. Yeah, yeah. And then we're here talking about dance. Yeah. It's just interesting, isn't it?

speaker-1 (06:32)

It is definitely definitely definitely. I think the the funny thing is we might get into that later, place I've lived and stuff. But it did get to a stage where I was playing rugby and dancing and it just was not it became not possible because the amount and how enthusiastic I was about dance, yeah. I was skipping all these rugby trainings and you can't do that. You get out of those fields with those guys and my size, like you're just getting bashed around. I was like, Okay, I'm gonna

speaker-0 (06:58)

They go and do your dancing, get out of here, come and see you.

speaker-1 (07:01)

No, no, exactly, exactly. So yeah, and I it it's it's interesting because obviously, you know, you've had lots of conversations with different people from the industry and dances and there's different ways to look at dance. Yeah. An art, yeah, a sport, you know, so there's different perspectives and and different kind influences of how how you might approach it, you know. So it feeds into that, I guess.

speaker-0 (07:22)

Yeah,

no, beautiful. Thank you for the sharing back. I mean, one last question on that. Yeah. Do you ever get to go back to South Africa?

speaker-1 (07:27)

Yeah, I do. So obviously my my parents live here, my brother lives here. but South London represent. So but I have a lot of family that lives there, my cousins and uncles and aunts and stuff like that. So yeah, I've been fortunate actually to go back several times for dance festivals. Okay. So been able to dance and and connect with the dance scene there and obviously see family at the same time. So that's been great. And I've been to some great dance festivals there. I

speaker-0 (07:52)

I was about to say, what's the scene like over there? Yeah.

speaker-1 (07:54)

think again, like I would say

you know, South Africa is like a very like vibrant culture, like energetic culture. So I mean that maybe is a bit of a generalization, but you know, there's obviously quiet people.

speaker-0 (08:06)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (08:06)

But it was yeah, it was brilliant. It was brilliant to connect with people there and and see how they approached it, how they approached dance. And obviously, South Africa is not far from Angola when it comes to Kizomba. So yeah, there is now like a lot of unity in Africa in terms of

cross promotion with the events. Yes. So the promoters from South Africa, Angola, Kenya, Tanz Tanzania and all this will work together to kind of, you know, co promote and support each other. So

speaker-0 (08:30)

And that's really good to see and hear about because obviously it's an it's an African dance, isn't it? I mean, not j not just for that, but the fact that it is it's going around the world, I think that's really, really good.

speaker-1 (08:39)

Yeah, and definitely o obviously as well. Like we're here in in Britain and Britain is like very you could sort of see it geographically like central to Europe and all these big countries. But you know, b in in Africa, Angola, South Africa, it's it's quite far, far away from these places. So in terms of getting visibility and yeah, you know, attracting people to come and come to Africa, come to Angola, come to South Africa, you know, they're working together just to to make a viable and sustainable

speaker-0 (09:02)

Absolutely. I think it's a great thing, man. But great background. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Background. Thank you. Okay. So before dance. Yeah. Before dance entered the picture. Yeah. Yeah. I mean you talked a bit about sport. Yeah. But anything else you were doing?

speaker-1 (09:19)

Yeah, so it's interesting. I think I discovered s discovered, you know, obviously you you dance, you know about music and all that. I discovered and sort of really got into dance when I was at university, you know. So at university, maybe we'll talk about that, but I I studied biochemistry. Yes. So I come from a s I was a scientist, you know. So this is one of the funny things in dance. If you are a bit inquisitive and you start to ask people, what do you do? What are you into kind of thing?

the the eclectic mix of people is unreal. Yeah, yeah. You know. And it's funny, it's ironic, some of the sort of best dancers or or people who excel at it are f from these kind of alternative backgrounds you might not have thought so science or or whatever. But I think I was attracted to science because of that why, you know, understanding, you know, sort of expounding on what we are aware of and contributing kind of to society and that that that's, you know, just the unknown and and learning and that kind of stuff. So that's always been

something interesting for me, you know. so that's where that was from, you know.

speaker-0 (10:19)

I guess the question is how do you go from science to dance? Right.

speaker-1 (10:23)

Right.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. It was it wasn't a it wasn't it was a link but not a direct link, you know? So g to I guess to talk about the point of how I really got into dance, twofold. One was when I was studying biochemistry, I got to one point we were in the second year, and for me, obviously moving from South Africa to London, from from Joburg to London. Joburg is a big city, but I live in the suburbs and it's very different from London and the

metropolis that it is. It's a pr it's a big culture shock. Okay. You know, you have your perception of what England is like and and and postman pat and the Queen and whatever. But it's a big, it's a big change, big transition. And especially you like 13, 14, you're you're you've already kind of got your culture, your humor, those kinds of things set. So that was that was a big trans transition for me. So when I went to university, outside of London I went to university in Norwich.

It was kind of like my release. I was like, yes, okay, now it's, you know, time to kind of have fun and you know, kind of thing. So university was study for me, but it was also a bit of like a a release as well. So I did enjoy like the the partying side, which is probably no surprise to anyone in the community. The the the social side of university. I think that was really good for me. And the one of the interesting things was yes, we got to like the second year of of university, and you know, I'm doing my biochemistry and

I I've I've been fortunate that I excelled kind of at at academics and stuff. So, you know, I I maybe whilst I, you know, making as much effort as I should have. I was having a bit of too much fun in the nightclub or in the like you do, mate. In the in playing rugby and sports and socializing. so it got to a point where I remember my peers, they were all chatting in the classroom and I overheard them, yeah, you're gonna get a summer placement and what you're gonna do. And I thought, hold on a sec, what are you talking about? Summer placement, what's this thing? And then I realized, my god, I'm on the back foot. Like

You know, it's coming to the third year. If I'm gonna get a job, I need to start getting myself sorted. So I really took down board and I got a placement in one of the research labs. And this was a lab studying cancer research, MS, these kinds of things. and funny enough, I ended up being the only one who actually did the placement. Everyone's just talking about it. But

speaker-0 (12:39)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (12:40)

you know, it it's ironic, but it was brilliant. It was a great choice, obviously, for for for my career and my learning and that.

But actually, funny enough, the coincidence is is that's how I stumbled upon dance. Because one day I obviously you're the you're the student. You're the kind of little you're you're you're the younger person in the lab. So you do whatever groundwork that they ask you to do. So one day I was put doing some boring thing in this one little cupboard room, just repetitive task. And I asked one of the the members there, one of the PhD students, if I could borrow the iPod, right?

So I borrowed the iPod, went in the lab, got the things in, and I'm listening and it's whatever music going. Next when it comes to this song, and it's music I'm not recognizing. I'm not, it's like Latin, African, and I'm going, what's this? Like, this is different, you know. I'm like, interesting, you know. So obviously, when I finished the stuff, I went back to this person. I said, Okay, so you had this other music on there. What's all this stuff going on? And they were like, Okay, no, this is salsa, this is about Chadna Merengue, Kizomba, Tango, et cetera, et cetera, you know. And so

Know being who I am, I'm like, okay, brilliant. So what you go and dances? And she was like, Yeah, I go and dances. So I invited myself along, and and that's how it all began. You know, went to my first event and that was it. Loved it. Loved it. Loved the community, the sense of togetherness, how how open it was, how friendly it was. And I think for me, that was also the very interesting sort of di juxtaposition of how clubbing and dancing was compared to.

social dance because I I found it quite weird and ironic that when we went to like the university nightclub, you'd go with like your close friends, let's say five, six friends, but you wouldn't really like naturally just meet everyone else. So I thought that was quite weird that okay, we're here in this room with all these 500 people, but we're alone. Like we're not really like it's it's it's it you you you you might meet people and and and bump into people and stuff, but it wasn't like an unnatural thing, you know? Yeah.

So that was the first thing that hit me about the dancing of how engaged it was normal to meet everyone. Yeah. It was normal to go and say hi and connect and get to know everyone. the second thing that I that I really liked about was again, and this might be more culture of the UK versus America or England or South Africa. When you when you danced in a club in England, you had to dance by like in a funny way, in a jokey way, you know? So in your group, if there was someone who was really good at dancing.

They're not really allowed to show off and be good at dancing because everyone else is not good. So I liked that when you went to the social, you could like be good or not be good, but it doesn't matter. Like it's it's we're having fun, but you can excel at it, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So that really struck me, but definitely like the community vibe. Yeah. I I love that.

speaker-0 (15:35)

100%, yeah, and that's interesting. So you obviously might not remember this at all, but you know the song that you said that you heard when you listened to that iPod? Yeah. Do you remember what that was?

speaker-1 (15:44)

No, I don't I don't I there was some tango, okay, there was some salsa bachata, there was some kizo, I don't remember exactly what song, but definitely obviously for me being from South Africa, yes, you might have some connection with Latin culture or African music, like I've grown up obviously with Western music, but I've grown up with Ladiesmith, Black Mombasa, Miriam McKeba, like these South African singers, you know, but I wouldn't have naturally

been a part of that community, hearing that music tango, salsa, kizomba, semba, you know. So for me it was like, this is super interesting, you know? Yeah. and then yeah, like I said, I think we will talk more about Kizomba and why that resonated with me later on. But definitely the community sense, the connection with the music and with people. Yeah. It was was big for me.

speaker-0 (16:32)

I think it's yeah, you know what you're saying, because when you're young, you go dancing, you go clubbing. Yeah. Clubbing's a different vibe to when you come into salsa in Kizomba. Just seems more I don't know what the word I'm looking for, civilized, if that makes sense. I don't know if that's the right word, but it's more yeah just nicer. You approach people, yeah, you're there to dance. Yeah, but

speaker-1 (16:53)

But

I think the irony and the weird thing about it is that when people go clubbing, they would like to meet people. They do want to engage and get to know other people and make friends, you know? But it's just the the actual the actual mechanism to do that isn't natural there, you know, kind of thing because people are more standoffish. Whereas when we go to a kizombre event or whatever, or social dance event, that is part of the point. It's normal, it's okay to go and say,

Hey, how's it going? Exactly. You know, and you've got that natural engagement kind of there, you know. So

speaker-0 (17:25)

why

we love it, right? Yeah. Which is why we love it. Okay, no, great. So I think you've answered quite a number of my questions already, but it's all good.

speaker-1 (17:32)

Yeah.

speaker-0 (17:32)

Okay, yeah. So that that's cool. so you lived and worked in the US, yeah, for several years. Yeah. Yeah. What was that?

speaker-1 (17:40)

Yeah, so it was great. I'm super fortunate, you know, to have had that experience. And I would say to anyone, if you had the opportunity, and it can be scary to leave the place you're from and that. For me, obviously moving from England from South Africa to England, it wasn't my choice. My family moved there. I'm grateful for that. but it gave me the experience of what it felt like to move. So it wasn't so scary then to move again. It I I I was already kind of prepared. So I moved to America for my first job.

And that was again by going and doing this placement in a research lab. I met an American professor and and she was a bit of a mentor for me and that kind of thing. So that was actually in the time of 2008, 2009, where there was the the crash kind of financial and it was very hard for students to get careers, you know. So actually a lot of my friends they ended up just staying in university, going into medicine and stuff. For me, I likely had this connection and one thing led to another and I got offered a position to move to America and

And have a career there. So that was in in science and working in research academia. Okay. And that. And yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was an amazing experience. It's great to live somewhere else. Like I said, I would always recommend people, if they have an opportunity to live somewhere else, to try it, you know. I mean it's not like you can't move back, you know. but yeah, culturally, there's so much to learn, you know, how people do things in different ways that you wouldn't have thought of. It's not better, it's different. Yeah. And seeing how that influences things and

one of the first things I asked when I was going to move to America, the first things I looked up, did they have dance? Of course they

speaker-0 (19:12)

So but I was gonna.

speaker-1 (19:13)

have rugby, did they have these activities that I like? And I moved to Vermont. So it's not like a massive city. Vermont's a beautiful place in the northeast of America. So Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Massachusetts, this kind of area, northeast. beautiful area. I moved to Burlington. So it's a city of about eighty thousand people maybe.

So big difference from London, from Cape Town, these kinds of places. Definitely the smallest place I lived. But yeah, it was it was a beautiful experience. I moved there and I worked in some research labs. So the first lab that I worked in was studying like brain cancer research. And then the lab that I spent most of my time in was working a lab for infectious disease. but very like studying the biochemical mechanisms of that. Specifically, if you want to know, I studied aggregator back actinomycotum comitants.

speaker-0 (20:05)

Yeah new.

speaker-1 (20:05)

There you go, the one you know, you know. So part of the part of the hilarious part is part of the interview. The professor Keith, that was like the joke of the interview. If you could say that, yeah, you know, so that's a bacteria that lives in your mouth. wow. And it's periodontal disease. So we studied that and the mechanisms of the bacteria, how it evades the immune system, how it binds to the teeth, etc. etc. So it was brilliant. I loved it. Great professor. Again, I think a lot of life is about finding good role models.

mentors, that kind of thing. So I've been lucky I've had good mentors in my life as well. So he was a great mentor. he was a professor that, you know, you wanted to work well for. But also in terms of my dance career, you know, that we'll come on to, he wasn't someone that like held you, you know, even though he knew that I worked well and I was an asset to the lab, I could talk to him about dance and my career and my life and what I was thinking of doing. And, you know, he said to me, Look, if that's your passion, go for it. You know what I mean?

So yeah, I love working there. And when I moved there, like I said, I looked for dance. And it's so funny because when I when I was started planning to move over, like a couple months before, I messaged some people in the dance scene there, specifically at the university. because I was when I started dancing, I was 20. So when I moved to America, I was 21. so that's 2008, 2009. Yeah. but in America, they still study four years, so they study to

Twenty twenty-two, right? Twenty-one, twenty-two. So I was university age when I lived when I moved there. So I messaged the the dance society there and the president. And when I and I kept messaging because I wasn't getting a response, you know. So I was like, what's happening? When are the dance? I'm moving over and all this and not giving up, you know. And when I eventually got there and met, you know, this Hannah, her name was the president of the society. It's like, my god, you're that guy who incessantly messaged, you know. but yeah, made great friends. Yeah.

two of my best friends that I know now, Hunter and Taylor, were guys that I met in the society there. and we became best friends. We live together. I see them all the time. And one of them is a professional dance in New York. So he moved to New York. Salsa on two.

speaker-0 (22:20)

What style of Saturday, yeah.

speaker-1 (22:24)

but also like Afro-Cuban. So interesting because he went into the roots of salsa. Yeah. and obviously the roots of salsa, Afro-Cuban, the roots is from Africa. Yeah. You know, it's about Orishas.

It's about Yoruba, you know, Nigerian African culture, you know, West African dance and that. And then the other friend of mine, Taylor, he loves Mallorca now. Yeah. He also danced, you know, does also Capoera, which also has it roots in Angola and these kind of things. So yeah, it was an amazing experience to live there.

speaker-0 (22:49)

Yeah, no, rich, rich. just a question, because obviously, you know, you you you know you lived in America, you lived in a number of places. Yeah. And the job, I know we talk about your job quite a bit, your previous job. Yeah. And you you you dance, you dance well, you love it, and even the professor said, Go for it, you know, if it's your passion. But do you miss any of that stuff?

speaker-1 (23:08)

Yeah. Yeah, a good question. It's good question. people often ask me that, you know, and it's interesting, and people will be going through their lives and having careers and stuff. And when I was studying biochemistry and I went into this research lab and did this internship, it inspired me a lot because you're around people that are invested in research, that have a passion for research. You see the difference that it makes because you're in fields that's about advancing medicine, helping people overcome, you know, health issues and stuff like that. So

You know, you're making a difference, you know, one small step at a time, but you're making a difference. So you get inspired by that. And I, like I said before, inspired about why, how, and adding to that knowledge and you know, discovering new things. That's that's that's inspirational, you know. But what I realized working in science, my my idea was that I'll go to university. when I went to America, I was working there and I was doing a masters as well to eventually do a PhD and then go further in science, right? Become a professor, etc.

but once you go further and further into a career, you have your idea of what you think it is, and then you start to discover what it really entails. Yeah. But also you learn about yourself. You learn about who you are, what's your strengths, what your weaknesses are, what's your personality, you know? So I think the whole time I was in research, I was obviously, like I said, discovering about myself. And I got to a point where I started to question: okay, I like research, I enjoy this, but is this

Is this who I am? Is this taking advantage of my personality, of my my outwardness, my engagement, what I like to be socialness? Yeah. Because in research, it's quite it is collaborative, but it it is often quite solitary. So it's a lot of it's a lot of work where you are at your bench focusing meticulous, you know, step increments, you know, very precise detail, but in your space.

by yourself, you know. And there is opportunity to collaborate with labs, et cetera. But it is very much like that. You go on your mission and you're taking that forward, you know? So yeah, it dawned on me that maybe I'm not taking advantage of those other aspects of me. You know, the other side of me, well, you know, you have like these little voices, you know. The other voice was saying, but could those mean that because you have those traits now you're different.

In this field. So could you excel because you have those other trades? So it was kind of I was lived in America for six years, and I would say the last maybe even three years, two, three years, I had this ongoing question with myself, debate with myself about that. And during that time in America, I got more and more into dance. So I started in Norwich, and I'd love to talk about Norwich because that was a great start in dance.

But when I moved to America, obviously I continued to be inspired and get into it more. And then through that, through starting to teach and performing and having a dance school, I discovered, okay, well actually I really enjoy this and I really enjoy teaching and I enjoy this aspect. So that helped me kind of understand and then yeah, then it's about like taking a big leap, you know, kind of thing, you know? So

speaker-0 (26:25)

I'm smiling here as I'm listening to you speak. And the reason for that is because even when I introduced you, one of the words I use is energy. Right. So when we talk about you being in a lab and doing this, yeah, then I see who you are on the dance floor. Yeah. It's just

speaker-1 (26:38)

I think I definitely I I I definitely stuck out like a thaw sore thumb in the lab. Yeah, exactly. These other guys in the lab were like, Hey, this guy, like this guy's playing rugby and stuff, and he's like working in his lab. I'm like, you know, so

speaker-0 (26:49)

So in answer to your question, you you know, yeah, you are doing what you're you know, what's calling you to do. Yeah.

speaker-1 (26:56)

Be with people, I think, then yeah, and that kind of thing, definitely. So it's ironic because I think if I look back now in my life, like thinking about coming to this podcast and talking to you and going, Okay, he's probably gonna ask me about okay, why did I get into that? Now I can look back and think, actually, like it's interesting. Well, I did do that when I was younger, and I did do that. You don't necessarily always put the things together, and I think, okay, well, my actually my dad is like that, and then my granddad was like that. So it's like this nature and nurture kind of conversation, isn't it? You know, where's the influences from? So.

Yeah, no that's interesting. Great, great.

speaker-0 (27:27)

Really, really good. Yeah. Okay, so that's a bit about USA, talked about science. Yeah. Okay. So let's talk a bit more about dance then and talk about your dance school. Okay. Yeah. So it's well, I've got here that you open your first dance school in the in the US. Yes. Yeah.

speaker-1 (27:44)

Yes.

speaker-0 (27:45)

So how was that experience opening opening it over there? Yeah.

speaker-1 (27:50)

It w it was brilliant. Yeah. I think I think it was an adventure. Yeah. You know, because now dance is my career. And when it's your career, obviously I mean it's something that's happened very organically, I would say, first of all. I've never thought I would dance, you know. Well what Well, because 'cause I think in life as as as it's human nature that your your your ego, a sense of self tells you who you are and it defines you.

I am Richard, I'm a South African guy, I play rugby, I study biochemistry, you know. But I think through discovering dance and then becoming a teacher, et cetera, and ki and and learning cuzomba as well, I've learned that life is going to throw different opportunities and ideas at you and challenge you in a funny way. And you kind of need to allow yourself to be open to it because you just don't know what you will love or fall in love with or be excited about. Because

You're way more multifaceted than you realize. You know what I mean? There's the world is wide, there's so many things to discover. You know, you never know. You might be you love pottery. You try it.

speaker-0 (28:56)

No, I haven't, but I might I definitely might do it.

speaker-1 (28:58)

So no, no, I'm just messing with you, but you know what I mean? So I think that's just just human nature. You think, I love rugby, so that's who I am, or or whatever. You know what I mean? but then yeah, life throws you an iPod and now you you dance, you know. So yeah, I I I got into it and I think yes, I I when I started in in Norwich, that's why I started dancing, that's why I went to university, East Anglia, and it was a a wicked dance community, very nice c dance community.

Not a massive dance community, it doesn't need to be big to have a good energy, you know. Great people in the community. And also, I think what I would say a lot, and which I am proud that we have in that I have in my school now is that the dance community in Norwich was still very connected to the culture. So obviously I had first started in Sal Sambachata and in it was very connected to the Latin community. They would you would be in events.

And in bars that Latin people were there. So it wasn't removed. It wasn't that we're learning dance lessons, but we're not really intertwined with that community. Because I think being intertwined with that helps you to have perspective and also it helps you to balance that we're learning dance, so we want to excel and get better to be able to enjoy it through understanding different movements, but it's still social. It's for fun. People from

Angola or different Portuguese speaking countries, Palop countries, they grow up with dance. It's just a it's their party, it's their normal party that they go to. Like you would go to a club here and it's to go with friends and family. You don't need to be amazing to have fun. Absolutely. So that grounding was I I I really appreciated that, you know, and that's something that I've always tried to keep and had when I went to America, strong communities there. Yeah. When I learned Kizamba in Montreal.

Strong communities there, especially Haiti, for example. So Kompa, you could never have a Kisoba party without Compah. So, but yeah, so amazing grounding, yeah, you know, in the dance scene. I mean, there's people that's still in the dancing now that were that I were great friends with and that were inspirational for me. There's a lovely lady, her name's Tony Sally. Tony Sally, she lives in that area. And I used to know her. And even when I lived in America, I used to come back and

When I started dancing at Kizamba, I'd ask her where we could go out. And I went to Chocta Tuesdays and went to these places with her. So you know, you there's these people that you grow up and they know you and you're just like this beginner. And yeah, you know, yeah. My first time dancing. Every photo of me is me looking at my feet. Yes. Yes, yes. You know, and yeah, moving to America, getting into dance more. How, like I said, to the plan was ne I never thought I'd be a teacher. I never thought I'd perform, never wanted to perform. I thought,

Performing was fake, it's not real, it's not social dancing, and running a dance school. It wasn't the plan. I just wanted to become a good dancer and and and and learn more about dance. but I think it was because we lived myself and my friends, it wasn't only me that made it, it was a group of us. we lived in the smaller town and then we were very motivated to learn. So we were traveling to Montreal, and that's like two hour drive, you know, traveling to Boston, that's a three hour drive. Yeah.

traveling to New York, that's six hours. Wow. So that's how w how motivated we were. So it was natural then that we were coming back to Burlington where we lived and going out and people were seeing, wow, this is awesome, what you're learning. Like, could you teach us? Could you know? So it just happened like that. It was just very organic.

speaker-0 (32:37)

know great yeah great experiences you've had richard yeah they're all great but then you come back to the UK yes in 2015 yes yeah starting with rhythm and vibes dance company right so it's almost like you well you tell me but you're having a fresh take on things yeah so what was the you know inspiration rhythm vibes and what we what's the vision for that what did you want? Yeah

speaker-1 (33:01)

Yeah,

so like I said to you, I had this kind of discussion in my mind about was I gonna stay in science, what did I wanna do? And the interesting thing is is that when I lived in America, obviously, you know, when you lived in Europe, when we when before Brexit, we're part of the European Union, you could easily live in any country you want, right? You could go live and work in Spain and that was obviously politics aside, was an amazing advantage of that, you know.

If you hadn't grown up in that, you wouldn't have known that it's not always easy to move somewhere. So when I lived in America, you have to have a visa. It's actually quite strict, like what you can and can't do. And I discovered that through my time living there. so my it's it's I had a great experience there, but thinking more about your future and how could your future be there, it's a long process. Lots can like if you want to naturalize in America and green cards and all that, this is like a 10 year process. Okay.

You're working for a company, anything can go wrong in 10 years, a company can you whatever, you know. And at one stage, I had to speak to an immigration lawyer. I had something issue with my visa that we had to fix. And while I was there, I asked a lot of questions. I said about, I do dance, I have a dance school and all this kind thing, with my friends, and it's just like something we do for fun and whatever. It wasn't like a financial thing at that stage. And she said, you need to be careful because you're here, and the the immigration system in America is actually.

Like quite antiquated, it hasn't really been updated to like modern perspective of things. We all know all about that. And she said, you know, your the rules about your visa are quite strict, so you need to be careful about your involvement in dance. So that made me think a lot about okay, well, then how am I gonna go forward in my future? Is my future here in America as many friends as I made and everything? My family's still in the UK, so is my future in the UK? And do I wanna still stay in research?

So it actually got to a point where I'd finished my master's, I'd done that, et cetera. I got to this point where I was like, okay, now I need to start making some decisions. And actually, you know, I'm close with my family. I would always visit my family and stuff a lot when I lived there. And it just so happened that my mom wasn't well. She she got sick, she got cancer, actually. So I felt for me and my family that it was best for me to come back to the UK to be supporting. And in that time, you don't know what's gonna happen.

Gratefully, my mom is still here and you know, we're together and she's a fighter. I mean, you know, so that's why I get a lot of that tenacity from, you know, inspiration from. So so I moved back to England. And when I had that transition, for me, it had this natural kind of point of decision making. So sometimes in your life you have these moments, you know, change of career and whatever life circumstance. So it was a natural moment for me to kind of assess.

And I remember very vividly I was applying for jobs in research and I was just so not motivated. I was like, no, this is I don't want to start again in a lab and have to make this impression. I want to dance more. Yeah. I want this is who this is something I want to grow more in my life, you know? Yeah. Because we had already got to a stage, we built a great community. I was traveling to festivals, you know, you know, growing a lot more in myself and and that kind of thing. So I just got to one day where I just was like.

That's it. I'm gonna move to England. When I move back to England, I'm gonna try to run a dance school full time. I'm gonna give myself six months and we'll see what happens. You know. Fortunately, I had saved up a bit of money, that kind of thing. And obviously my family lived here. So when I moved back, I was able to live with my family. And that's obviously a big thing in the UK. Sure. We know that everyone knows that about rent. We all know, you know, the cost of that. So that gave me a platform where I had the opportunity to do that. Yeah, you know, and I set a target for myself.

It w you know it was a great I mean, looking back now, it's not like it was a stressful time. Again, in your youth, it's it's adventurous. I mean, I was, I think so, 10 years ago, I was 28 at that time. And you know, it was a difficult time with my family, with my mom and supporting. but in terms of my my job and career and and wanting to do dance full time, it was a very exciting time. Yeah. You know, so I have very fond memories of that. And I had set myself a goal that

In six months, so it was the June, July till December, that by December I need I needed twenty people in each of my classes. And if that happened, I was gonna do it. Last

speaker-0 (37:33)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (37:35)

week of December, the last class, I got twenty people in all the classes. The amazing

speaker-0 (37:40)

Later than never.

speaker-1 (37:41)

thing is about dancing, there are still people that came to dance classes ten years ago that I know now that come to the events and that I'm friends with.

I mean that's amazing.

speaker-0 (37:53)

Great,

you it's longevity and commitment, loyalty, you know, fun, all these different things. Exactly. Do you know what I mean? So kudos to you for sticking it out, and I think that passion's in you, isn't it? It's like one of those things, you know, I've got to try it. Yeah, if it doesn't work out fine, but I will kill kick myself if I didn't try it. Yeah, definitely. Do you know what mean? well done for trying it, and we thank you for trying it. You

speaker-1 (38:14)

Thank you, thank you.

speaker-0 (38:15)

know what I mean? I mean, so

Obviously you talked about that, the reasons why, but what were there some challenges when you creating it over here in London? Anything.

speaker-1 (38:23)

Yeah,

definitely. I I think I think obviously I had the chance in America with friends to do it for fun. You know, I mean it is fun, I still have fun, but now it's my career, so there's about making sure that it's sustainable and viable and that kind of thing. but at that time there wasn't any pressure, you know. I mean we started the dance school in America because we wanted to have a social where we heard all the great music that we were hearing in Montreal and all these amazing cities.

That was it. We just said, let's make our own social. And if it works out, amazing, you know. So through that we learned a lot of things. And I think interesting thing, just coming back to the point about living in different countries, each country has their psychology, their aura, their energy, you know? And something like something about South Africa I said, very vibrant, youthful, energetic. UK and Europe, it's very much it's it's an

Old societies. There's a lot of history here. So it's a culture that people are lot about enjoying the experience. You know, it's not just about the end goal, right? In America, it's it's a also a very young society, it's a very motivated society. It's about being number one. It's like, we're gonna do it. I'm gonna be the best. I want to be on top of the world, you know. This like New York, anything's achievable, this Rihanna, this kind of stuff. You know what I mean? Like, so they very have that get up and go, like I can do anything, you know, energy. So

I definitely that rubs off on you kind of thing. And I think I learned a lot there about how to how to connect with people, how to run something, the the framework, the infrastructure of running something and how to do it well, how to engage with people, you know, these kinds of things, you know. And when I used to travel back to England to visit my family and like I say, go to different events, as I got closer to knowing that, you know, I might move back to England.

You know, it started to go through my mind like how would it be if I did classes here around it? And what I realized is like like there was loads of great events, but there definitely was like a spot for me. Like there was a space for someone like me that I could contribute something, you know, with the way I was and that kind of thing. So, you know what I mean? So that's how I felt. So I definitely felt like when I moved to England, I wasn't like at that time to start the dance company. I wasn't scared, like I wasn't

You would think it's crazy. Like, here's me coming to London, 12 million people, and I'm just gonna go, yeah, I want to start my dance class.

speaker-0 (40:57)

No way, yeah.

speaker-1 (40:59)

but I was just had a lot of enthusiasm and I just wanted to like give people energy and excitement about dance. I wanted to get them excited about Kizomba. I wanted to get them excited about social dance. You know, I saw what it did for me, what it does for people. So I already kind of had that confidence and that assurity. I knew sort of what I was.

of getting into yeah you know so I was excited to like do it again you know obviously I left a lot of great friends behind and you know still know a lot of people there and friend my friend Tyler who we set the dance school up with and loads of other great people they still dance and have schools in other places California and stuff like that so so I think I would say it wasn't I would say at the beginning yeah it wasn't

I didn't feel like it was difficult. I didn't feel like it was it was hard, you know? Yeah. I I just felt like I definitely felt sure that there was something I could bring and contribute, you know? And it was just starting small, step by step. The first class had two people. Two people came to the first class. And that's a lot like saying to people, it doesn't it all starts from just something small. And like it was very like I said, very like organic. Two people came. I still have like the picture.

Of the two people in the room. You know, it was in Hernille at the Lido, Brockwell Lido, if anyone knows that in the park, you know. My mom used to go to the gym there. So she knew the people who rented out the gym studios. And that's how we started. Yeah. You know. So and you learn a lot. Like you have a vision of maybe how you want to run your school or what you want to show people. And I had learnt in America that okay, in the weekdays you have classes and you do classes in a studio.

And on the weekends, you have the party and the party happens in the club. But these two things are separate, you know. This is how it is in Spain or whatever. But in the UK, that is not how it is. It can be, but the culture is different because of how dance has developed here. Yeah. Just because the nature of the pub culture here, et cetera, et cetera, you know, sort of thing. So I, you know, very much was pragmatic about this is my vision, but if I want to bring people with me, I also need to come a bit closer to them so that we can go kind of on this journey, you know. So yeah.

speaker-0 (43:10)

Great. I mean, I just love I love the vision. I love the fact that you're like, you know what, I'm gonna do this. Yeah. I'm just gonna do this. Yeah. Yeah, there's gonna be challenges coming, but you know what? I'm doing

speaker-1 (43:19)

Yeah.

I mean I I mean at the beginning, you know, I was I I printed flyers and I was going just doing basic. I was going door to door and putting flyers in people's door and earn you. I mean just starting old school, like totally putting flyers in the co op and on the thing, the discussion board of the libraries and you know, you just have to start like that. That's it and you just enjoy it. You just enjoy the thing and the development of it and you know.

speaker-0 (43:43)

two people, then it obviously got a little bit bigger and bigger. But was there a point I mean obviously it's got great now, was there a point where you're like

'cause it's not it's not growing. Was there a point that that that happened at all or not really?

speaker-1 (43:54)

No, along the way, there's there's often things that happens and in the UK, I mean, traditionally and people overseas might know that, but you know, venues, venues is a big thing, and finding a place that you can have some stability and that there the venue is in the same space as you. You are it's both working for both of you. It's viable for both, you know. so in the UK, we in London we have an issue with that. The cost of gr rent is is very high here. So organizers and teachers struggle a lot with that. And for you know.

dancers and people it's difficult if you're constantly moving. Yeah. So for me definitely I knew that that was one of the key things for me is having and generally I would say in dance is about consistency. In life anything is consistency. Any podcast you listen to about things, it's about keeping going with something. You know, that's one of the things that stands you out in in something is okay you got to have passion, determination, motivation, the things you do when people are watching, and cont consistency in something. So

I think yes, one of the things I started in Honeyl, you know, just the first thing, you know, if anyone's starting a non-school or starting a community, it's just about making connection with people first, you know, it's about knowing people, it's about them knowing you, it's about having no barriers and you know, it's about student and teacher on the same level kind of thing. So I just had fun with getting to know people like when the school was still small, you know, pe students used to come and we'd have a burger before the class and then we'd go to the class, you know.

The first social that we ever had in my dance school was in the kids' play area of a pub, you know, because the students were like, We've traveled all the way from the other side of London. We can't just have like two hours of class and then go home or one hour. Like we need to have a little bit of social. So here's me walking around to the place and going, Hmm, that's like a like four by four meter space. We can use that. And the pub's like, sure, I'm like, Okay, we'll buy some beers and you know, it's like just happened like that. And

You know, yeah, we started there and then you know, obviously one of the things to manage when when people like what you're doing is that people ask for more. You know, people ask for more, and that's because they're excited and you obviously want to do that. So it's just about managing, okay, how how can you do that? So naturally it's you know evolving and we we generally the school has always had a footprint in South London. I'm from South London, yeah, you know, at one stage a lot of the dance was in North London.

So I had a bit of a joke that I'm gonna bring everyone to sound ladder. Yeah, it did that. You know, things evolved in that. So you know, it was in Brixton. We moved to Brixton and yeah, so I think that was that was difficult moving spaces, but I have been fortunate with venues. I've met people at the right time. Yeah, you know, and one of the venues that we're very fortunate to have that people will know who know me is the classic. It was a banqueting suite run by a guy called Tofawa, Guyanese guy. And it was a beautiful space, like I say, like a like.

So it wasn't an active pub, but it was a space open for rent. But it had a bar

speaker-0 (46:54)

Two team, yeah.

speaker-1 (46:57)

exactly. Yeah. So we were there for a long time. So that was like 2017, I think we started there. And I was there until twenty twenty, the pandemic. We probably would still be there and have a have something there. But obviously, you know, that situation changed with people's lives move and Tefauwa, he he moved on with that from that venue and stuff. So yeah, yeah, very fortunate.

speaker-0 (47:19)

So a number things, I I like that venue. So going we'll talk about your event later, but yeah, used to go to that one. Really, really nice, like you were saying about Banquet and Squeak. and what you were saying before, it's really around, you know, you're saying you had that little space in the corner, yeah, and starting off slow and all that kind of stuff and just building up. Yeah. And I think it's partly you, right? So they'll come to that class, even if it's two people or three people, but they'll be they'll have they'll have be in their minds, that guy Richard. Yeah, that crazy energetic guy Richard, you know?

Because you have that effect on people. So they remember you and they'll come back. Yeah, because that's kind of building up your brand and just but that's just you who you are as a person. Yeah. But what I'm saying is that's that's how they that's how you probably build it up yourself, you know.

speaker-1 (47:57)

Yeah.

I think that I think like you if you listen to a lot of things about life or you know things you want to get into and excel at, it's obviously something that you've got to enjoy and we enjoy this. But then it's I think also there's there's something about if you want people to be able to enjoy themselves, you have to allow them to be themselves. Yeah. So f and obviously you have to again talking about the culture of places. So

Where I lived in Vermont, it had a specific culture, you know. So you had to understand that culture to know how to kind of activate people, to switch them on, to let the barriers break down. London is a big city. You can it's often considered a bit of a lonely city because it's a business place. It's happening. Go, go, go. People lived next to each other, but they don't know each other, you know? So often people can come in a bit cold, a bit reserved, a bit unsure, tentative. Yes, you know. And even when you're starting something new, that's natural. Yes.

So one of the things that I quickly learned and observed and understood about people, and maybe that's a bit of my awareness from like a science background, you know, being able to kind of evaluate things is that I saw that, okay, people are coming in like that. I need to help them just be themselves. So to help someone be themselves, you have to be yourself. Yeah. You can't be if you sometimes, especially because this is a social dance that we do, you can't be so serious. Yeah.

There's times to be serious, there's times to be focused and you know, that kind of thing, but you have to allow for that and just allow yourself to be silly or make mistakes or, you know, because that break brings down the barrier. So that's why people will also come back because you allow them to connect with you. You are interested in them. So that has to be natural, you know. Every teacher, and this is to do just generally with teaching, like teachers in schools, teachers for anything.

People will connect with you for different reasons, but you need to be connectable, you know. And some people will connect with you. And I think I watched so a bit about the podcast that Lenny was doing. He spoke very well about that, that different people connect with different teaching styles and that. And when you're teaching, you've got to understand that people learn in different ways, people understand in different ways, they connect in with different sort of presentation of things and and also like you've just

I think another thing, and we'll come on to that, but in in the dance thing, it's a passion. So you're it's very close to your heart. But when you run classes or do events, it now becomes about those people. You you've decided to do something for people. Yes. So now it's about them. So you've got to be careful not to take it so personally or too hard. Yes. If people choose, choose someone else or choose something else or can't make it, you know, and a lot of life is.

taking things objectively, not subjectively. Absolutely. You know. So I learned that a while quite a while ago with with dance. Yeah. And you go we all go through that. You're like, you're thinking they'd even come. How could they you know told me you were gonna come? But I learned that a long time ago, it's not about you. People have their lives. It's life, isn't You it's life. Totally. Yeah.

speaker-0 (51:08)

I like what you said. You definitely I think in it's a in a nutshell it's about fun. That's why you be yourself. Yeah. Especially in London, man. There's lots lots going on, man. People got different so

speaker-1 (51:18)

So much

yeah. And and you can have there is a fun in like I when I learned dance, I had a lot of fun in drilling a move. I can do a move over and over and over again. And that's maybe because I'm from a sports background. I like that. I wanna master that technique, you know, whatever. So you can have fun in that, you know. But when you're running group sessions or whatever the vision for your school is, or you know, it's just understanding, okay, that's my vision. Who are the people here now? You know.

How can I affect them and what do they need to excel or move forward? How do I connect them to take them there, you know? So

speaker-0 (51:52)

No, really, really good, really good. So thanks, sharing a bit about your you know, your your your company there and how you set it up. But I just wanna shout out that your rhythm and vibes is recognized by the Arts Council. Yes, that's of England. Yes. So that's a big deal, right? Yeah.

speaker-1 (52:14)

It was definitely definitely. Yeah. So I mean, that happened again. I mean, we talk about how how how interesting dance is in terms of the dynamic of how sociable it is, how it integrates people, it connects people, community cohesion, diversity, like all the stuff that is very important in for for life generally, but in a city like London where it's so multicultural, you know. and for me

how it came about with the arts council is that this was during the time when the pandemic came around and obviously it was you know a very tumultuous time and and and difficult time for everyone in life and everything and many industries struggled but obviously arts and culture was massive you know because we lost it this you can't it's connection it is being together you know so at that time the government in the UK here put funding out

To try to keep arts and culture alive. So that was called the Cultural Recovery Fund. And for myself during that time, I tried many times to reopen the school, but every time it kept changing the rules and blah, blah. So I, for me personally, knew that dance, it does, it is super important for communities. It has a massive impact on people's lives. Not just for everyday people, but the people.

whose culture that dance is. So for pe people from the Palop community, you know, to have places they can go that is their dance when they're living in a place that's that's maybe not where they're from or not their home or whatever, you know. just to have that connection with the community. So I discovered about the Cultural Recovery Fund and I applied for that, you know, and I put the case to them and said, this is what we're doing. We're not a theater. We're not a arts installation or a

National Gallery, but we are important. You know, these are grassroots activities that make a huge difference to the community. Here are the people we are affecting. Here's the diversity and multiculturalness of what we do. And I think also not only that, that's another thing about dance that we didn't hit on yet. But often in our general lives, we are only doing activities with people our age. So

When you're at university, you're spending time with people 18, 19, 20. Like I said, in the club, you're going with those people. But in social dance, the age range is as broad as it can get. You're with people of all ages. So it's very diverse in that sense. So that's very important for a community to have that, to connect with people from different backgrounds and stuff. So that was the case that I put to them. You have to write a grant, you have to put all financial predictions and everything. So I guess coming from a science background and grant writing.

that kind of stuff that helped me. Yeah. You know, but I definitely believe that we were making a difference, you know. So that definitely helped us. so the the dance school got an allocation of funding to then go and improve what we had and look forward and go, okay, how can we come out of the pandemic in a better position to provide more? And that's how we moved to the school now where we have Drena the venue that we have now.

the equipment that we have, all those speakers, the air conditioners, all these things were part of that. So the community went to support that and now that supports the community.

speaker-0 (55:43)

Is great, you know, and you're doing great work with it. And yeah, congratulations on getting that and obviously tenacity in applying for it as well. So definitely good stuff, Richard, because you're you know people like going to your events, you know. There's certain times on a Saturday night that they're like, Where am I going? It's Drenner on. Drenner is Richard's party, we'll talk about a bit later on. And it's always busy, so you're providing something that people but

speaker-1 (56:06)

Yeah.

speaker-0 (56:08)

let's get on to you, right? You, you, you a little bit now in terms of in terms of teaching.

speaker-1 (56:12)

It's a man who talked. Okay.

speaker-0 (56:16)

So your teacher style is what I'm talking about. Okay. All right. So what I what I really like about you, right? Is that you're very clear when you're teaching. Right. So very clear, very patient, able to break things down and get people to understand what you're doing. Recently, you were at an event. I was taking one of your classes. All right, absolutely. So I saw it firsthand. The impression was all right. I saw it firsthand and I was like, ooh, okay.

That is yeah, I get that. Because I've had a lot of different teachers, they teach you different things. Everybody's got their own different styles, like you were saying before, everybody's different, right? But I walked away from that and I was like, said to my wife, I was like

I can get that. Yeah. Yeah. And more importantly, I can practice that, I can do that. But it was the way that you and that you broke it down. Right. So I guess my question to you is you know, what's your teaching style? What do you hope the people walk away with after they've had a session or an hour or two or even I don't know, ten minutes with you? Yeah. What are you trying to get at?

speaker-1 (57:20)

Yeah. Yeah, it is interesting, like you say, different teachers have their teaching style. That obviously is coming from their personality, the way they might have learned, the teachers that they might have had, et cetera. I think, like I said, going back to Norwich, I had some amazing teachers when I first started learning. Again, at the beginning, that was in the the Latin community. So there's some people now that in the community there aren't teachers anymore, and people wouldn't have had the fortune or don't know that they were teachers. And I tell them, that was my teacher, that was my teacher, and they're like, Whoa, I didn't realise that. So

Shout out to Larissa London. Larissa who sells the shoes.

speaker-0 (57:52)

Okay.

speaker-1 (57:52)

Yeah. She's she was an amazing dancer, amazing teacher. So she was my first teacher of cross-body salsa. Fantastic. I remember going to her classes. Richard Fallon, who's a Cuban teacher, lives in London here. People go to El Grande. He's often there.

speaker-0 (58:04)

Yeah, yeah.

speaker-1 (58:06)

So something that stood out about him when he taught me, this is when I was new, very, very new, at right at the beginning. You know, you're learning this pattern, you for you gonna know what's going on, you know. But he kept you engaged.

And he was so funny. I was like, this guy, if he was this guy can be a comedian. Forget about this dance. Go stand up, you know, like was so good. But obviously it helps to break the ice because it it's very difficult as a student. You want to get it right. And then it's frustrating when it's not right. And you're learning with someone. You're not learning by yourself. So there's also that kind of can be a bit of a pressure and anxiety. You know, you're going to the next partner, and as a leader, you got to remember the move. And obviously for follow there's different expectations or stresses and stuff. So

I I saw how important that was, you know, that icebreaker energy. And then obviously the organization of the class and how some teachers effortlessly, it just felt the flow of the class was natural. You felt this is right. Yeah. You know, there's just the right amount. Like you said, not too hot, not too cold, just in the middle, you know. And I've been very fortunate to have gone to a lot of great workshops, had a lot of good teachers, seeing sort of what is the level, what is, you know.

Going, let's say, to festivals and seeing how Adolfo might teach or how an amazing Kizomba jamba jamba teacher might teach in Kizomba, irrespective of styles, you know, what that level is. You know, Fabricio de Zangado, amazing teacher, you know, a teacher that really inspired me a lot in Kizomba, both by giving you historical snippets, cultural relevance, challenging you, but having the balance right, you know. so you take that on board. And when I eventually went to America and we

set up our dance school there. I remember again very vividly sitting with my friends who we had this school with and we had never taught, so we were learning as well. You know, we try to do our best. We would teach the class, let's say Kizomba class. There was no Kizomba in Vermont when we lived there. So we were doing this for the first time. Very motivated to get people excited about Kizomba, break down you know, I prejudices about Kizomba, opinions, misunderstandings, whatever, you know, and and share how good it is with people.

We would teach a Kizomba class for an hour. Students would go, right? We'd probably spend longer debating how the class went afterwards. We'd sit and talk about what we did. No, you shouldn't have done that. That's not how you explain that. So we would just be going at each other about how we should teach it, what's the right way, how can we do it better? We did that for ages. We did that probably for a year longer, just constantly chatting to each other and debating how were we teaching? How was it going, you know?

That was a big part of that, you know, for how I learned to teach as well, you know. So it was kind of like you know, take taking lessons ourselves and you know, self-evaluating yeah a lot about our teaching and recording, yeah, how we taught and stuff like that. And yeah, being pretty hard at each other about it, you know, being very honest, you know. And it's funny because yeah, the Tyler, my friend in in America and the guys that I started, Johnny and different people, Sarah, these people.

yeah, I was pretty like no holes barred with stuff. I was pretty straight with like what we needed to do better and stuff like that. Yeah. But it's different. Like when you're in the class with students, they're coming in with a certain expectation, and you've got to understand sort of how much they need, you know, because your passion and motivation might be on this level because you're already at that point in your journey. Someone coming in new, you can't be that harsh and that with them, unless specifically.

That's what you've set. But when you're with your peers, you can be like that. Yeah. So that was a big part of it. And I think my teaching style now is very much that I want people to leave with that sense of achievement and sense of motivation. So I mean, even this weekend, and and you know, it's it's it's very it's very inspiring and you feel like very like grateful and you feel that sense of achievement yourself as a teacher.

When a student might come to you and say, Whoa, that was really cool. Like, I feel like I can take that and I can try and do that on the dance floor. You know, so it's getting that level where you're challenging them. It's it's it's pushing them, but not to a point where they break and they go, I can't do this. I can't do this. Okay. If they're in the wrong class, if it's an intermediate and they're a beginner, different, then that's natural, you know. But a lot is there's different ways to set up a class. You can start with a movement.

That you know that generally maybe most of the students will have some awareness of. Maybe you present that move in a different way, in a different formation, different intro, a different exit, whatever, or that technique that you're trying to get across. So it's kind of like this warm-up, you know, and then you build them up. There's different ways you can present a class, but j definitely the class is about being knowing what you're gonna teach very organized, having prepared it beforehand, obviously.

Review it with your partner that you're gonna teach with. And then sometimes, you know, this comes with experience. Yeah. Anything can happen in the past, yeah. You have you, you know, the things that have happened that I was not ready for or didn't expect, or something gets thrown at you, or a question that you didn't know or don't know the answer to. You you learn along the way and you you you become more malleable, yeah, and more like okay with the spanner in the works type thing.

And definitely as part of that, it's knowing that the class you might start it one way, but it's not gonna end like that. And sometimes having a plan B and a plan C and rolling with it. You know, rolling with it, you know. So and it's a lot of it's a lot of it's a lot of observation of the students. In my classes, I always I'm I always have a timer. I always time the classes because you can get away with it.

We're talking a lot now. I can speak a lot, but you have to learn not to speak a lot. You need to speak in very for me, you need to my opinion is you need to speak in very short, short bursts. Because we need to dance. Yeah. We need to repeat. Repetition is a massive part of it. You know, you can show people a move the first time and they won't get it. But if you allow them to do it eight, nine, ten times, you know, people are capable. Yeah. You know, they might not know it, but when you with the experience, you know that people can grasp a concept if you give them a chance.

You know, s you know what I mean? So we can talk about this for an hour, but yeah, go into a whole thing about a class. But yeah, it's a lot of that.

speaker-0 (1:04:35)

No, and it's really good. It's really good insight actually to understand what you teachers go through behind the scenes. Just even that point you were talking about not talking a lot. I wouldn't even Yeah necessarily observe that, but you're correct.

speaker-1 (1:04:45)

Gotta

give like the other thing is something I do is that let's say I'm teaching with Kyla, who who's my partner, we dance dance together. I of it I always say to her, is there something you want to add? Because it's a partner dance. Then

speaker-0 (1:04:58)

You did that?

speaker-1 (1:04:59)

I will specifically I will specifically step back. I will kind of step out unless she needs me, I will give her the space to express because.

50% or usually more are followers in the class. So we need to respect that, you know. And yes, it is quite common in the dance scene that it's just how it is right now that the leaders and let's say in my partnership with Kyla, I'm the one that's directing the class. So I need to be cognizant that I'm naturally talking more. Yeah. So I really need to be mindful to give her that that airtime and that space, you know. And then

After that, it's asking the students questions. So usually it's does anyone have questions? Then it's do you want to say something, Kyla? Then it's do I need to add anything? Yeah. And you've also got to be mindful as a teacher that you don't always need to say something. They ask questions. If that's gone on for a minute, minute and a half, that's enough. We need to so then you know what I mean? So you're not gonna cre you're not gonna teach everyone everything in one lesson. Yeah. So

speaker-0 (1:06:10)

No, absolutely. And like I said, great insight. And that's one of the things I remembered you saying. I remember specifically you saying, Kyla, do you have anything to add? When I was was in that session. So definitely, yeah. A hundred percent. Okay. what do you think makes a great teacher?

speaker-1 (1:06:26)

yeah, I mean a lot of what we said, I mean, a lot, it's it's it's a lot of observation, self critique, and then like, what are you in it for? I mean, to be a good teacher, it's about everyone else. You know, to be a good teacher when you're teaching, it's about giving. You know what I mean? It's not about you now. Even though something cool about being a teacher and what I liked about discovering and becoming a teacher was like, whoa, if I'm a teacher, that means I'm always in the class, that means I'm always practicing.

Try and catch me. Let's go. Cause I'm still here. Like if you miss a class, I'm still going to be in the class. You know what I mean? So even if you're teaching a beginner's class, you're still practicing. You're still listening to the music. You're still doing your steps. What I call you're getting dance miles. You know, you're getting your dance miles. So there's no substitute for that, you know. so I think yeah, a good a good teacher is, you know, there's varieties of what motivates us. We wanna.

You know, again, what everything we've talked about, connect people with the with the community, help people achieve what they want to achieve. And and I guess that's also part of it. It's knowing that if you're if we're talking about group classes, a group class is understanding that everyone in the class is coming for maybe slightly different things. someone comes because they wanna get fitter, someone comes because they have a stressful job and they wanna break from that job. Because we're not teach it's not children that we're teaching that they have to be at school, you know.

Or someone's going to university to get a job. People are coming here and it's generally for a pastime. Some people might be learning to be a teacher, but actually most people aren't coming for that. Yeah. They maybe discover that later and think, actually I kind of I enjoy that. Or maybe they had an opportunity to assist the class and they were like, whoa, that was cool, you know. So I'm gonna get out the lab, you know. So yeah, so I think, you know, to be a good teacher, it's being aware that people are coming in with different motivations. Yeah.

How to match your vision with those people in the room, how to take them on that journey with you, kind of try to meet them maybe a little bit. You know, it's not all right or wrong. Yeah. You know, it's just a different opinion kind of. And and I think, yeah, it's it's it's it's trying to challenge people, but keep them with you, you know. Keep them with you, take them on that journey, kind of, you know, connect with them.

speaker-0 (1:08:44)

Interesting and good awareness there.

You have a friend, I believe, who you lived with who was an Angolan. Yes. Yeah?

speaker-1 (1:08:54)

Yes, yes, yes.

speaker-0 (1:08:56)

So obviously we know Kizomba is Angolan. We all know that. beautiful place it is, Angola and the dance comes from. What did they teach you or did you learn anything from that p particular post about Kizomba?

speaker-1 (1:09:07)

Yeah,

it it's it's it's funny because I obviously like we chatted about I'm from South Africa, I moved to England, I moved to America. But it's funny how, you know, people with the energy like you you find each other, you know. So even when I moved to England and I again, like I said, it was a bit of it's a culture shock, you know. I lived I moved to South London in a city school, it was very different from the kind of school environment discipline that I was used to.

Inner city schools are notorious for being a bit tumultuous and all this kind of thing, lots of rebellion and all that kind of thing. So we had a very diverse school in South London. I went to Kingsdale. But a lot of the people from the school actually, like we had very diverse. We had South London has a big Caribbean community. and also a lot of guys from Africa, a lot of African students as well. So I just naturally was in that group. So we had guys from Ethiopia, Ghana, Nigeria.

loads of different countries, you know. so I was always in and around that group. And then again, like moving to America and in dance, going to like African parties and discovering and and being in groups with African friends. And yeah, during my time living in Vermont, I made a really good friend and obviously good enough that we lived together, you know, Dominguez. His name is Dominguez. So we lived together two, three years and just like obviously learning Kizomba and then

having a chance to have a really great friend, not just the teacher that's from Angola and all that, but l living with someone from Kizom from Angola. you get to obviously learn a lot more about the culture, about the great food, you know. so yeah, I have amazing fond memories of that. And, you know, people from different countries are obviously very diverse. We like to think that, you know, Americans are like this or people, English people are like this, but it's not. I mean, people are very diverse. And Dominguez, I mean

you know, super intelligent guy, you know, and also something that I I discovered and coming from South Africa, we have eleven different languages in South Africa, right? National, national languages. I've grown up speaking English, Afrikaans. I left quite young, like I said. So I started learning Zulu but didn't continue with that moving to England. but like Dominguez, he spoke like seven languages, you know, English, Spanish, Portuguese.

And then all the languages from Angola, Kimbundu, Lingala, like all these languages. So I think like experience learning Kizomba and then s have been able to go home, see your mate, your root your housemate, and talk to him about what you're learning, about the music, and then say, how was it in Angola like that? How is it? You know, that is is cool. You know, that was really cool, you know, being able to do that and ask about Bonga and you know the history of Angola and like how it was, because obviously they had their

whole history with independence and the music was a big part of that as well, you know, inspiration for the that whole time in history. So yeah, I mean just brilliant. I mean also in Angola they love their spicy food. Yes yeah so maybe not everyone eats spicy they love their spicy food. And I have definitely been on the wrong end of that spicy food one or two times.

speaker-0 (1:12:25)

We're not gonna talk about that, Richie. We're gonna move on, we're gonna move on from that.

speaker-1 (1:12:28)

As they know, pili pilly. Pili pilly is what they call spicy food. Fufu is the maize meal. Okay, this is the the the food. So he was a great cook. And I couldn't even I couldn't even cook after that because he was too good. So yeah, so very fond memories.

speaker-0 (1:12:44)

So someone you obviously you dancing a zombie but you've got someone who can embed the culture to you as well.

speaker-1 (1:12:48)

Also, I think we some if if you're new to dance, sometimes people get this misconception that like let's say everyone from Latin America dances salsa. No, salsa is from there and there's people that are good at it, but not everyone is good at it. So Dominguez, he danced kizomba, but he danced kizomba as someone that's just grown up with it, you know. And that comes back to the point that you can enjoy kizomba, you don't need to know loads of steps. Yeah, you know, you can decided and motivated to learn and.

That's it might sound weird as a teacher here sitting. I mean, I want people to come to my class, but I'm saying like it's not just about that. You know what I mean? So there is that community aspect and being able to enjoy the dance, to be with your friends and knowing a couple of steps is fine.

speaker-0 (1:13:31)

Yeah. Funny 'cause literally then my next question is around misconceptions and you kinda touched on it. But is anything specific that you think people, you know, kind of you know, misconceive about Kizombra and Semba, particularly in your team?

speaker-1 (1:13:41)

Well,

like obviously Kizomba and Semba, we feel now loads of more people know about it. And it still will grow a lot. There's still more for Kizomba to expand and people to learn about the dance to be excited about the dance, and it is expanding, you know, everything goes a little bit up and down as it as it as it evolves. But obviously one of the big misconceptions originally of Kizomba was that it's it's a very like sexual dance.

It's this, you know, and it it did at one point have this kind of like idea that it was kind of like in the dark room and sleazy kind of and it's definitely not, you know, and all people loads of people who love kizomba and have learned about kizomba will tell you that it's a familial dance, you know, that kizomba is it the energy is based on a hug. That's why it has that closeness. But we can hug, but it's not sexual, you know what I mean? It's what you put into it. Anything can be can can be something different based on your mentality, how you

decide to approach it or engage with it, right? So so Kizomba is a dance that a mother and son can dance, a father and daughter can dance, you know. So of course if you dance with your significant other or someone you're attracted to and it's a conceptual thing, then yeah, then obviously you can make it something else, you know. But but I think that's one of the big misconceptions. But that's a cultural thing again. Have you grown up being comfortable being very close to someone? Yeah. You know, and many cultures are different for that. Many people grow up in cultures where

Men and women might be more separate, or they don't grow up with a partner dance, etc. So it just is maybe that perception. Yeah. And maybe how you know, Keisomba might have gone mainstream originally. You know, was often when something goes goes mainstream, it might be slightly like adapted to make it look relevant for the audience that you want to present it to. Maybe let's say a Western audience. So now obviously there's different versions of

Kizomba or Urban Kiz, different kinds of evolutions of Kizomba and tangents, let's say. But we have the Kizomba umbrella, which is your Kizomba, your semba, you know, your Tarashinya, like all these dances. we have the music, Zouk, Ghetto Zook, all these different things. But and now obviously, yeah, we have more dancers, we have more opportunities to travel. like you've been to Angola. So these things are opening up where people can learn and understand more, you know.

The more people that learn it, the more that knowledge will spread and awareness and understanding. Yeah.

speaker-0 (1:16:06)

And that misconception would would would would go away, but

speaker-1 (1:16:08)

Exactly,

exactly. And and there's definitely people that I know and you know would have thought that about Kizomba in one stage and now they love Kizomba. Yeah, you know, because they've been able to put that to one side because they've had their own experience. Absolutely. You know, absolutely. Or a friend has said, Yeah, this dance is really great. Like I you think that, but you're wrong. Like just come and try it, you know. Or another big thing is that, you know, I have I like I said to you, I I started dancing salsa and bachata and

I learned I've then learned Kizomba and I love Kizomba. And I most places where I go teach, I teach Kizomba. If I get hired for festivals, I'm the Kizomba guy, whatever, you know. So one of the things is I've always still danced Salsa Bachata. And one of the things that I have appreciated about that and I've I've wanted to maintain was the fact that if I can keep salsa bacter kizomba in my school, you can create that cross-pollination.

You can create an opportunity where someone who might not would have not otherwise gone to a kizomba event, they'll come to this place because we have multiple rooms. We have an event where they can go to their comfort zone and then maybe someone can encourage them, no, just come over to the kizomba, try it, you know? Yeah. You know? And I am proud of the party that you mentioned, Drena, because originally it started only as a kizomba party. And now it has a Sal Sabachata room.

But I I do like that it challenges people's conception because the Kizomba room is the main room. It's the bigger room. So when, you know, generally speaking, Latin dance, Salsa Bachata has become more established, it's been around longer in the general what do you call mainstream longer than Kizomba, right? So a lot of times, like in America when Kizomba was become established, it was at Latin festivals, it was at Latin congresses, salsa congresses, you know.

And now obviously we have Kizomba festivals, they're standalone events, you know. But I love that Trena can be that people can come and see. And it's not Kizomba is the little brother, you know? Yeah. It's people can come and see, whoa, there's a huge community for this.

speaker-0 (1:18:15)

Yeah, no. And you're you're right. Even you opening up my eyes here because obviously we talk about two things, South London, the the venue that you had there. That when I think about that now, that was literally Kazomba. Nothing else. Yeah. So your new venue now, you've got Kazomba room. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So that's really good in terms of yeah, literally like you said, Hey, I I see that, let me go over here. So

speaker-1 (1:18:35)

Exactly, exactly.

speaker-0 (1:18:36)

But what I wanna ask you then, is where where did the name come from? And what does it mean? What is Drenna? What are the

speaker-1 (1:18:42)

Drena. Okay. So Drana, it's how you that's how you would say Drana. It means adrenaline. It means energy, I've put so that's why I call it. So that's like a slang term in Palo, in Kizomba C that community. Drana means adrenaline.

speaker-0 (1:19:00)

Okay, so there you go, people. You you yep, now you know what it is.

speaker-1 (1:19:03)

Now you know what it is, yeah.

speaker-0 (1:19:05)

And you know, you've been doing that for some time. must be proud of it. Definitely. What what do you say about your your night?

speaker-1 (1:19:13)

Think I think yeah, coming back to one of the points I said before, I am really part proud of Drena and Drena wouldn't would not exist without like having you know the people behind the scenes and capable people and people that want to go with you on a journey. You need people that will will staff and people that'll be with you and go with you and stuff. And you know, so you know, I'm I'm really grateful to those people and fortunate that they wanted to be part of this, you know. So you have people that have, you know, sit on the door.

you know, and take pe and and take tickets and people on the code check and this. And you know, I have people like Vanessa, Vanessa Henry, shout out to you. We love you. she's been with me and part of the school since that time. We were in in in tooting. That's a long time. 2017, it's coming on 10 years, you know. She's the actually the connection of how we are in the venue we are now because it's school, that's where she works, that's how we made that connection, you know. So I'm proud of for that, you know, the longevity of it and growing like that. And

Things happen over time again, you know. It life is a train. People get on and off, and like London, people move, they're people get married, they things happen. So people are with you and people move on. And the other thing I think that I'm proud of with Drennor is what I said earlier that it is connected with the community. So I'm very proud that we have a great synergy between social dancers, people that have not haven't grown up in the Palop community, that have only just learned in a dance class.

And come to Drena and feel welcomed and comfortable and included, as well as Palops feeling welcome and comfortable and like they feel like this is my space. Yeah. You know, and that's kind of the onus of how I run that event. I want this to be people's space. Yeah. And and that is also has been a big part of my dance company and understanding how to create that energy. And that's another sort of art, is how to host a space, how to host something, yeah, how to

own a space and create an energy in that room the MC being an MC being a host you you know that so is is breaking down the for me I would say breaking out clicks you know so I'm not that kind of person I want people to be together I don't want a little group little group little like you know and like obviously people have their friends yeah but I want people to feel good in a space yeah you know all together in a space. And like you say, Drennor will be the favorite party of some people and other people will love other parties. It's not so

People will say to me, but this other event is on your night and everything. I'm like, that's cool. Like it does it doesn't matter. Like, you know, I am providing something that I think people will like. And if they like it, they will come, you know? And if someone else is providing the event, they will put their energy and their spin on it. Yeah. And people will like that. And that's good. Yeah. And that's hey.

speaker-0 (1:21:59)

We live in a world where we have options, right?

speaker-1 (1:22:00)

Yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely, yeah.

speaker-0 (1:22:03)

Richard, have you always had this energy? Where does it come from? Is he just

speaker-1 (1:22:06)

The energy. It was I don't

know, man. Maybe I'm getting a bit tired now. I'm not sure. No, yeah, I think I think like your your personality, your energy is your upbringing, you know, it's the people that you're around, it's it's it's your nat like we said, nature and nurture. Yeah. I do think that in South Africa, yeah, it is a very vibrant, you know, a lot of verve kind of culture. I definitely think that growing up in South Africa in that time with Nelson Mandela and

That hope and that motivation, there was a lot of that. So I definitely was around that positivity. And then I was thinking, yeah, about this today as well, like thinking about coming to the podcast. You like I think my like actually, like my dad is very much like a jovial, very like this kind of person. So I do take, I guess, a lot from my parents from that. My mom was a very savvy person, like motivated, not not just business, but just like

achieving things, you know, wanting to make things happen. And and then even further, like if I think about like people would say I'm friendly, I'm engaging, like, and like lots of people like people know me. we know who Richard is kind of thing. my grandfather was like that. Like he would like, you know, talk it to like obviously I knew my grandfather, but I don't know him as people would know him. He's my granddad, you know, I don't know him as his friends would know him. But speaking to my my parents and my aunts and uncles and stuff. You know, he

He was the guy, everyone knew him as the guy who was the cycle guy. Everyone knew if you need a bicycle, if you cycle, if you love cycling, he's the guy in Cape Town, you go to that guy for that. Everyone in Cape Town knew him for that. You know, they all knew Johnny. So I don't know. I guess like it runs on the family a bit. You know what I mean? So you know,

speaker-0 (1:23:47)

Yeah, yeah.

speaker-1 (1:23:49)

so I think it's a bit of it's a bit of that. Yeah, it's a bit of that.

speaker-0 (1:23:52)

Okay, cool. And just want to talk about, you know, traveling and teaching. Yeah. So you've taught and performed around the world, okay? So you've met dancers from many, many countries. what have been some insights that you've you've found from different places that you've been?

speaker-1 (1:24:11)

Yeah, I mean, it's very interesting to travel to different countries to teach. I mean, that's I mean, I I remember when I first started getting invited to festivals, I like, whoa, this is like the best thing ever. Like just going to a festival is amazing. And then being invited, like as an artist and you're new and it's your first, you know, any first gig you get or promotion or something in your career is like, whoa, it's so it's so it's impactful, like it means a lot to you, you know? And yeah, it was brilliant. And

Yeah, I've gone to some very interesting places. You know, I've I've been obviously traveled to festivals as a as as a student and then now as a teacher and and a performer and whatever. I've gone, I've been to Russia, I've been to obviously America, I've been to Turkey, I've been to Ghana, I've been to South Africa, so many different obviously around Europe, Romania, you know, and obviously one is like people are all very similar. Like everyone wants to have a good time.

I think that the dance scene is very special because the dance scene is a very it's it's it's it it it naturally will attract very more open-minded people, especially like if you're alone, let's say in Russia, for example, a kizomba festival in Russia. Sounds pretty removed, doesn't it? I mean, you know, like the you know, so it it's it's it's for people to seek kizomba in China.

India, any place like that, you you know, there they're obviously gotta be very, you know, open-minded people kind of thing. Cause I'm sure they've got their own dances and that kind of thing. So you you do meet very you meet a very good group of people and people that want to connect. I think also what I learned is that like what we said about living in different countries, people do have different things that they're seeking. Also they have different influences. So if you talk about Kizomba and you know.

How there is urban kids, for example. And obviously, Kizomba people might feel a bit like they have lots of discussions about urban kids and what it means and how everything fits together. But like Lenin was saying in his podcast, people are open to express themselves in different ways because art is different and you connect with different music and this kind of thing. So the main thing is to give people an opportunity to be inspired by what you enjoy. So I like to inspire people with Kizomba. It's my preference because of

The music. I love the music. I w I like that it's African. I like that it's those sounds, those feelings, promoting those movements. I I enjoy that, you know. but when you travel to different countries, sometimes people think, but why over there don't they dance like this or whatever? But you've got to remember people are the sum of their influences. So if you live in a place where they don't happen to have many people from that community, it's gonna be hard for them to continue to be inspired or have a reference point.

You know, so I think for me traveling to those countries and different countries was just to yeah, put my little bit of inspiration and motivation for people and you know, be that example for people based on the people that have been an example for you and what you've learned. So definitely like for example, I think like going to let's say let's say Budapest, Hungary, or going to Romania or going to Russia, these kinds of parts of the world.

there was definitely a yearning for connection. I definitely felt there was a real yearning for connection and just the simplicity of being close to someone and being connected, you know? and very different takes on music. Like, you know, we adrena, we love kizomba and semba and those, like I said, those African sounds, and we love the authenticity of that music. And I love the raspy voice of Angolan singers, like the male singers, or the very

power voices of the female singers. Like that's cool for me, you know? that it's not like the same as like a Western sound of what's right to sing, you know, kind of how your voice should sound clear and whatever. You know what I mean? So not that everyone sings like that, but you get why I mean you but like one thing that like struck me was like I think it was was a going to maybe I think it was maybe hungry the one of the first times was that they loved these like

very cinematic effects like lightning bolt.

speaker-0 (1:28:37)

Ooh.

speaker-1 (1:28:39)

So they connected with that. And obviously that's something for them that was meaningful to have that sort of that very grand, like big, like meaningful sound. So you know what I mean? So it is I don't know. So it's interesting, you know, and you take from that and then you try as a teacher or if you're trying to inspire people, know okay, they're coming from that angle. That's what they need or that's what they like or

i you know, influenced by. Yeah. So how can in knowing that then how can you reach them? You know, kind of thing. Navigate that, yeah. You know what I mean? So

speaker-0 (1:29:13)

Interesting,

yeah. And so the most unexpected place, would you say it's Russia?

speaker-1 (1:29:18)

Yeah, I think I think it would. I think it would. Yeah, I think I think it was. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I think Russia was. I think I loved going to Ghana. That was brilliant. Yeah, that was a great experience going there. the community there was amazing, you know. And they got all energy. Don't worry about me. Okay. You

speaker-0 (1:29:35)

That's where it's my country, so yeah.

speaker-1 (1:29:37)

know, yeah. that was in Accra. In Accra, yeah, Afro Kiko and all you know these places. So really good. I love the line dances. That was something that I learned there that.

And that's funny because we do animations, you know. People in the dancing, they'll know about Afro House and animations and everyone doing it together. But in Ghana, it was amazing because they actually choreograph like a whole line dance. And it's not like repeat the same like two moves. It's a proper thing. And then like hundred people get up and they're doing this line. They all know this dance. And then like this like Victor will have his dance and he goes and leads it, and then everyone follows Victor. And then you know, Richard will have his dance. And

Man, that was cool, you know. And I was I didn't know what was going on. I couldn't leave

speaker-0 (1:30:18)

I've got to go out there and see the Kazama community a little bit more than the other.

speaker-1 (1:30:22)

that

was hilarious again about Ghana was like we had something to eat and they had like like twenty dishes, these bowls of dishes. And the only one that was not spicy was the white rice. Everything else was it was spicy pork, spicy beef, spicy this. That was brilliant. Everything is

speaker-0 (1:30:41)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (1:30:42)

on that in the power, power on the spice.

speaker-0 (1:30:44)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Angola Garda everywhere. Yeah. Listen, Richard, we have talked. And you know what? The funny thing about this conversation is that I just feel like it's the start. I think we I feel that we could talk to so much more. But I want to ask you just a few things just before we wrap up, and that is you obviously love Kazomba, you've said that a number of times here, and the thing is you you do Sal Sabachata, Afro House, lots of different other dances. so what is it about Kazomba that you love?

so much. What is it that I mean, I think you've touched on it, but in a couple of words, what you know, what what gets you about this dance?

speaker-1 (1:31:20)

I think yeah, saying earlier just about about the sounds and and and that it's African. I'll say more about that. Obviously, like you said, we discover it different ways and I heard the music and then my first introduction to social dance was salsa bachata. And it's funny because again, like I said, you get into something and now your your your sense of self is like, okay, I'm a salsa guy now. Yeah. Okay, I was this guy, biochemistry guy, now you're a salsa guy. But I remember

That we were traveling to this different place, Montreal, all these different places, and we were going to learn, and we were originally going to learn salsa onto Mambo, you know, this style, you know. And I was super motivated about that. I remember the teachers and people saying, No, try this thing called Kizomba. And I like, No, man, stop distracting me. Like I'm on a mission here, you know. And you know, after a certain time, you have to just say, Okay, I'm gonna do it. Okay, just to keep people quiet. And that was that. And that was that, and that's the story. Like, and now that was it, Kizomba, you know.

speaker-0 (1:32:18)

Just try to.

speaker-1 (1:32:18)

over.

Yeah. So and yeah, I loved it. I think the I ironic thing is like traveling all the way from South Africa to the other side of the world. I mean, from South Africa, you know, from that part of the world to America, Vermont, Montreal, that part of the world, that's like fifteen thousand miles, you know, to then learn dances back from you know, Afro House, that's from originally from South Africa, to learn these things and moves and dances from Angola. I mean, that's just

Full circle, that's mind blowing, you know. So that was really cool. And I think, yes, again, you know, obviously the Western world has a big influence on the world, you know, just because of the time we're in and Western music does and that kind of thing and has influences. But I've obviously, yes, was fortunate to grow up in South Africa. And yes, we had the influence of Western music. We also had African music, like I said, Miriam OK, but these giants, great musicians. I didn't like I said, Lady Smith Black Mombas are amazing.

a cappella groups and just beautiful sounds and music. So you have a connection with that sound. You know, you grow up with that those sounds. so when I heard Kizomba, maybe there was a thing that, you know, it kind of brought me back to that. And that connection, obviously it all comes all all music comes back to the drum. The drum is the root of it and Africa's the root of that. And even like people who know samba, samba is from Semba, Semba is from Angola, people who know

Tango, Tango is from Milonga, Milonga is from Angola. All these things, like it's all connected to Africa originally, obviously. and I think, yes, I think, you know, I I was definitely connected to the music. and and I guess, yeah, like if I listen to different kinds of music, I I do love the maybe for want of a better word, the traditional sounds. Like I like the traditional sound of

Latin music, you know, of the percussion. I like the sounds of Kizomba and Semba, of the drums, of the Dekanza, of these different instruments. and I I I like I like that it's African. I like that energy. I like that, you know, also a lot of these movements and when you have teachers and maybe we'll come on to that, you know, as well about students, teacher-student relationship. And I would often encourage

Students to be very seeking and be more inquisitive. You know, I would say people to ask more questions. I would ask Mazillion questions of my teachers all the time because there's so much to learn, isn't there? Yes. So and behind a lot of these dances and steps, there's stories, you know. So in Afro House, a lot of the moves, it's made up because of something that happened. It's you're you're interpreting something. So in let's say in Afro House, there's a move called Palanganza. Okay. And it's just a movement where you're stepping back.

Your knees are shaking, you're sticking your booty out, your butt out, you know. And it's based on the palanca. The palanca is an animal from Angola. It's a deer, but it's a deer with a big butt, you know, an antelope, you know? So it's just imitating that. It's just a joke, you know? So if you know that, then you know, okay, that's like how you're supposed to act, you know. And I like that the movements are often like counterintuitive. And I like that Kizomba and Semba, it has that banga, it has that jingle, it has that.

The style. I like, you know, to try and challenge yourself to not just dance a step but dance in with the style, with the flavor. I think that's almost the bigger part of the challenge. So finding out like how do I how do I be authentic to the style and be myself within that? You know what I mean as well. Like, you know, who am I in that kind of yeah? so yeah, definitely that. And like in Kiz in in Semba and like Kizomba is from Semba.

the the the dance is from Semba and the the steps have moves. I mean the the vertigola the contratempo shuffle step that we do there's a story that that's from a woman it's biased based on a woman Joan Panambuku there's songs about that and like for example Fabricio he told me the story that the story is that this is a woman who would go out to dance but she had like one leg. So her one leg was like shorter than the other leg. So when she danced kizomba and that she couldn't turn properly she had to do a little hiccup step.

And then people watch it and go, she excuse my language. They started copying her. Yeah. And now that's how we have this step. So do

speaker-0 (1:36:45)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (1:36:46)

you know what I mean? This is so cool. Like I love that, you know. So yeah, I like that. I like I like promoting that. I like, you know, yes, sharing, I want to be part of sharing those cultures with with people. Beautiful. You know what I mean? So

speaker-0 (1:37:00)

Lots to unpack there, but beautiful.

speaker-1 (1:37:02)

Yeah, definitely, yeah.

speaker-0 (1:37:03)

Really good. But okay, so I think you like Kazumba. I you've answered the question. All right. I

speaker-1 (1:37:06)

Okay. Yeah.

speaker-0 (1:37:08)

get all right. So if you could give advice to anybody listening to this podcast, dancers and new people about the dance, what advice would you would you give them? I let me put it differently. So maybe new people think about Kazumba. Yeah. Not quite sure. What would you say to them?

speaker-1 (1:37:26)

Yeah, I would say what I said. I mean, I never thought I'd be a teacher, I never thought I'd dance, I never thought I'd do kizomba. And now it's it's part of who I am, you know. So there's so much to be discovered, you know. And what you're gonna lose, give it a go. Yeah, you know, go to a class, try it, you know what I mean? And just open your mind a little bit to discover and give things a shot. And to people who do dance, and I would say, yeah, this is you know, society goes in waves, you know, and people become more in an academic mind sometimes and

Other times people is just about the the chilling vibe or the social vibe. And that definitely happens with different things that happen in our lives, pandemic, all these different things. but I would definitely say this people to ask more of your teachers. There's so much to learn, you know. I'm always surprised at how little people question and ask me. You know? Okay. I think I could share so much more with people. Yes, I know there's only so much time, but yeah, you know, I'm here. You your teachers are here, people are here. They want to share because it's at their passion.

You know, and there's loads of things that you can share with people, you know. I also think, yes, like there is so much knowledge and stuff out there. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. Like, you know, there's so much that passionate teachers that are willing to open up and share with you, you know. And you know, now with the the knowledge and the awareness and the expansion of let's say ki if we're talking about Kizomba here.

it's it's so much easier to learn to get access to the knowledge. So how long it took me to learn to get here, you know, you're on super speed, you know what I mean? You know, so you know, we're all the sum of the parts that have gone before. So it's the accumulation of the knowledge and the information and the enthusiasm and the motivation. So to be new now in the scene, you've got loads, you know, to benefit from.

speaker-0 (1:39:19)

So, new people, get on it. And

speaker-1 (1:39:22)

Get on it. Yeah.

speaker-0 (1:39:22)

people who dance, ask more questions. Basically. That's basically what it is. Great, great advice, Richard. Thank you, my man. Listen, I want to say thank you. Thank you very much for joining us. Okay. Lots I've learned today as well. about your past, about Cazombra as well. And obviously I can see, see the passion in you as well, man. Keep doing what you're doing. Thank you. And you're providing a good service to London for the people of definitely here that want to go out. And like I say, your teaching is great, so keep doing that.

And yeah, man, we just hope to see you in the future succeeding, man.

speaker-1 (1:39:52)

Definitely. Definitely make it happen. Let's go.

speaker-0 (1:39:55)

Before

we before we go, we got a couple of questions for you, man. A couple of other fun questions. Well yeah, yeah, put you on the spot a little bit.

speaker-1 (1:39:59)

All right,

brilliant.

Brilliant.

speaker-0 (1:40:07)

Normally we would have three of these and I would answer one. Okay. But I was changed up a little bit.

speaker-1 (1:40:11)

But you try to remove yourself, yeah. A little bit. Okay.

speaker-0 (1:40:14)

Yeah.

But what it is, it's more about followers. Followers, people who like the podcast. Okay. Okay. People that watch all that kind of stuff. So I say, okay, I got this guest coming on. What do you think we should ask them? Okay. So we work together and we come up with questions. Alright. So people who watch the podcast

speaker-1 (1:40:28)

Okay, now go right.

Okay, we're gonna make them sweat, okay. Ooh,

speaker-0 (1:40:35)

Which one do you want to go for first?

speaker-1 (1:40:37)

I gotta choose, okay.

Which one hands more shaking? I think this one. I'll take this one. I'll go with this one. I'll go with

speaker-0 (1:40:44)

This

one. All right.

speaker-1 (1:40:46)

What is it? no, what have I got myself in?

speaker-0 (1:40:48)

No,

no no, this is a cool question. Yeah, I forgot about that. So Richard, if you could have a dance superpower, what would it be? Yeah, a dance superpower.

speaker-1 (1:40:58)

If I could have a Don superpower, what would it be? Whoa, that is a good question.

speaker-0 (1:41:03)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (1:41:04)

If I could have a Don superpower, what would it be?

Damn, how can I be a superhero now? If we could have a dance superpower. I think honestly, if I could have a dance superpower, I guess I I mean, maybe it's not so in this question, it would be to play the instruments.

speaker-0 (1:41:24)

Play the instrument.

speaker-1 (1:41:24)

I I I having moved different countries, I didn't really like my education got a bit like sta stag staggered, kind of. So I I never really got the experience of having music class.

So I think I do love the music a lot. I would love to play the instruments. I think I think that's a superpower. Yeah. I I love that. And then also I guess to speak the language. I think that is that is awesome. Like you only got twenty four hours in the day. And and I already am so grateful that I can dance and do this and be part of the community. But I think it would be very cool. Like if that's something that I could do, yeah, we'd be speak language and to play the instruments. Fantastic. Then you're unstoppable. Dance, instruments, language, super saying.

speaker-0 (1:42:05)

You're a superhero there of done. Okay.

speaker-1 (1:42:07)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe it's a bit left field, but I would love that. I would love that.

speaker-0 (1:42:10)

That's cool. It's cool, man. Yeah.

And the other one. we got the other one. You could you're g you gonna No no, you're gonna have both. Yeah,

speaker-1 (1:42:17)

Okay, okay, okay.

speaker-0 (1:42:18)

you you got both. Remember? We we were doing it. So All right, so you dance a number of different stance styles, like I said before. So Salsa, Bachacha, yeah, Afro Ladd infusion. Yeah.

If you could never dance one of these dance styles ever again, ever again, which one would it be? So salsa, but chatter, because some by Afrobeats, Afro Latin.

speaker-1 (1:42:40)

this

question. People love this. They love to say, okay, but what's your favorite?

speaker-0 (1:42:44)

But I haven't said that.

speaker-1 (1:42:45)

No, but that's basically what you've said. I have to choose my favorite if I could only dance one.

speaker-0 (1:42:50)

Yeah, just one.

speaker-1 (1:42:52)

Okay. That's crazy. This is not right. No, cancel the podcast. Cut it off. Cut off. No, I didn't sign up for this guy. If you Okay If I could only ever dance one.

speaker-0 (1:42:59)

You can never dance one of them. You can

never dance one of them. Which one would you remove?

speaker-1 (1:43:04)

if you could never dance one, which one would you

speaker-0 (1:43:06)

Yeah, so you got a number, right? Salsa, Bachata, Kizomba, Afro Beast.

speaker-1 (1:43:10)

So I could just say one, you know. Okay,

okay. Okay. Well I think that if you if you said to me I could say merengue. I say merengue.

speaker-0 (1:43:18)

Meringue.

speaker-1 (1:43:19)

Merengue. We don't gu merengue is good guys. I mean to all the merengue people, sorry, you know, I apologise, but you know, we could it's you know, I might come back to haunt me this, I don't know, but

speaker-0 (1:43:27)

I don't have merengue here. I don't have merengue here, but I said

speaker-1 (1:43:30)

All

the Merengue trolls are gonna come now and they're saying how dare you we're canceling you now. That's

speaker-0 (1:43:35)

But it's like what you said about teaching, we have our favorite teachers, right? So we have same thoughts as well. But no. Okay, Merengue. All right, cool. Yeah. Thank you, man. Thank you for playing a bit of fun there, all So Richard, listen, where can people find out about you? talk to the camera.

speaker-1 (1:43:49)

We're

here, we're in London, come discover us. And Drena, it's a monthly party that happens here in South London. If you want to find us on Instagram RV Dancecoat, check us out there. If you just wanna you I'm sure they could stalk us online. You can type in Richard Fooked. I'm sure I'm gonna come up there. My spamming has to have worked by now. You know, it's enough out there. So when you're asleep, don't worry about spamming. Okay. So you'll find us online, Rhythm and Vibes Dance Company, of course. And we look forward to seeing you guys there.

Come check it out.

speaker-0 (1:44:19)

So people, if you're in London on on a on a weekend.

speaker-1 (1:44:22)

And beginning of the month.

speaker-0 (1:44:23)

Beginning of the month, usually. Right. you can find Richard at Ad Drennor. Okay. Richard,

speaker-1 (1:44:29)

Thank you so much.

speaker-0 (1:44:30)

thank you very much, right? It's been great. Keep doing the work you're doing, right? Yeah. Thank you, man. Absolutely. So everyone, thank you very much for joining us again on Kizomba Conversations. If you want to sub subscribe, please do. And like I always say, keep dancing and we'll see you on the dance floor. Peace.

speaker-1 (1:44:48)

Subscribe, like, comment.