Episode #19 : In Conversation with Kizomba Teachers Yazza & Manon Batrel

SOUND BITES

"It's about the marriage of those two."
"I just love being in that space."
"Creativity is the number one in line."
"It's about energy, not gender."
"You just have to go for it."
"It's not that simple."
"It's an entire technique."
"We truly cannot help you."
"Don't be afraid to express yourself."
"You must know the answers."
"It's about the feeling."
"You will just get confused."
"You need to wait like two, three months."
"Enjoy the dance, enjoy the journey."

TRANSCRIPT

Victor (00:01)

Hello Kizomba friends and welcome to another episode of Kizomba Conversations. As always, I'm your host Victor and today we have two super guests joining us on the podcast. We have Manon who lights up the dance floor with her style and grace and we have Yazza who lights up the dance floor with her incredible Ginga. Two experienced Kizomba teachers here today to talk about leading and following, a really important topic in Kizomba and in dance in general.

and we are going to get into that topic right now. So welcome ladies, how are you doing?

Yazza (00:37)

Hi, good thanks.

Manon Batrel. (00:39)

Hello, good evening everybody. Very happy to be here once more, yes, excited.

Victor (00:41)

Hahaha

Yazza (00:41)

Mm-hmm.

Victor (00:47)

Fantastic. Yes. Welcome back Manon and welcome to the podcast, Yasmin. And like I said, we are going to be talking about leading and following. So we know that's a really important topic in Kizomba, especially. Well, you know, if you're not doing one, you're doing the other. Okay. And it's about the marriage of those two and how we do it effectively and what we should be looking for and all those good things. And we really want to hear from both of you because you're both experts in this area.

So what I want to do first is just introduce you to our guests, our listeners. Manon, I know you've been on our podcast before, so we're going to start off with Yazza. So Yazza, can you just say a little bit about your background, just so we can find out a bit about you.

Yazza (01:32)

Great. So yes, hi everybody. My name is Yazza. I first stepped into my first Kizomba class in 2014 and never looked back. And I started teaching Kizomba about six years ago, first in Spain, in Madrid, and then I moved over to here.

Victor (01:49)

Fantastic. And you enjoyed your time with it, right? Yes.

Yazza (01:53)

Absolutely. Got some top students here. Manon on knows. Yes, yes,

Victor (01:55)

fantastic. Cool.

Manon Batrel. (01:58)

Yes, for sure. There's no place like home, for sure, in

that sense, for sure. So yes, my name is Manon Batrel. I'm sure most of you know me from before or from my last podcast with Kizomba Conversations. And so I'm a Kizomba teacher in France now. Used to be in London, but around the world in general anyways. So yes, that's...

Victor (02:05)

Excellent.

Yeah. And how has the change been? How has the change been from the UK to France so far?

Manon Batrel. (02:28)

Me in one sentence?

We're still in very early days. mean, it's now been two months that we're here and we did teach a few classes and we have a few upcoming classes. One thing for sure is that, you know, we have the tendency to start comparing places where we go and teach in general anyways. And I have a strong feeling that the Kizomba as

I know it and as I was used to it in the UK is very different here in terms of of course the level, their approach but also the dynamic and the energy that people put into it. I feel like it's like being in a different world but

Victor (03:27)

from

what?

Manon Batrel. (03:29)

It's okay, I will bring my own little world here and you know exactly I'm sure I will.

Victor (03:32)

Bring your own flavor over there. know you will. Fantastic.

Okay. Great. Fantastic. what I want to do then is get into this topic of leading or following. before we do that, so, Yazza, I just want to find out, okay, just starting from the beginning in terms of yourself, you know, if you go back, what actually drew you to Kizomba in the beginning?

Yazza (03:56)

Yeah, so for me, I absolutely love the music. I thought that's it, that's basically it. And I think as well, Kizomba brings, all dances bring different crowds, but I don't know why, but for me, Kizomba, like the space, the people, it just draws me into it. When I first started dancing, I didn't think, you I want to be good at Kizomba or anything. I just went every week because I just love being in that space.

Victor (04:22)

Absolutely. I'm exactly the same. It's the music. Like you said, the first thing is definitely the music. Everybody says it's the music and you know, plus 10 plus years, you're still doing it. Fantastic. And Manon, would that be the same for you slightly or bit different?

Manon Batrel. (04:22)

Nice

Yazza (04:29)

Okay.

Manon Batrel. (04:38)

Yes, I'm just going to bounce on this. I find it so interesting because, well, I haven't run proper statistics on this, but funny enough, everyone, every person that I hear saying these words that you just said, Yasmin, it's like they somehow become like actual good Kizomba teachers for the community they're in. And...

Victor (05:02)

Mm-hmm.

Manon Batrel. (05:04)

And the reason why I've noticed this is because your intention, as you said, was just to come and enjoy yourself and enjoy the music and the dance. And it wasn't to show off some moves, it wasn't with the mindset that you're going to become the best or from an ego perspective or anything. So now I find it very interesting that this is sort of a common point between...

Victor (05:32)

Yeah.

Manon Batrel. (05:33)

between different people. For me it was the same. To be honest, I just would agree with you, Yasmin, this. I fell in love with the music truly. And in the same time, a part of me was like, what is this? So I had to investigate, I had to dig, I had to learn. And then when you start learning about it, you realize there's more to learn about it. So yeah, it was the same. It was really like...

Victor (05:48)

you

Manon Batrel. (06:00)

wow, that's a beautiful music and then you discover dance and then you just want to learn it. You just want to do it well. You just want to have fun. So, funny where we end up.

Victor (06:08)

Yeah.

Yeah, well, the music is universal and it keeps going strong. So thank you to you both for that. So excellent, excellent. So let's get into this then in terms of leading and following. And Yaz, I'm going to go straight to this project. So you have a wonderful project in London that you're doing called Project Switch. And I believe the whole point of that is switching roles. So if you're a leader, you're a follower. And if you're follower, you're a leader. So people can learn the other side and get well-rounded.

So what I want to find out from you, Yazza, is what inspired you to do that? And also, how is it going so far? What's the response been like?

Yazza (06:48)

Well, the inspiration came from many different places. People have asked me this question a few times and I can't really pinpoint one place. I would say that on the dance floor, a few men have asked me to lead them and they kind of asked me in a shy way, but they actually want to learn. But I feel like in classes where men go on one side of class and women go on the other side of the class, some people kind of feel shy.

perhaps to swap roles, but a surprising number of men have, do ask me, and I don't know Manon if this is the same for you, have asked me to lead them and have asked me for advice and things like that. And then when I'm leading women, it's the same. They say things like, I would love to know how to lead. And I say, well, you to class. So, you know, I think that's one aspect. Another aspect is that I love leading and following, and I love being of the switch between the two. And I think it's good to share that with other people.

Manon Batrel. (07:35)

Yeah.

Yazza (07:46)

you know, this question has so many answers. I would say that there are some people that I've met that leaders, for example, who lead okay, you know, they're good leaders, but actually, when I lead them, when they're followers, you can see that they're actually really enjoying the experience, because it's a different experience when you're follower. And, you know, it's just sharing these different experiences. You know, you don't have to, if you're a man, you don't have

Victor (07:48)

Yeah.

Yazza (08:15)

to lead if you're a woman you don't have to follow you can actually you know swap roles and you see online in lots of videos that you know lots of people do this and it's very beneficial to you you know if you're a leader and you can follow super beneficial to to see both sides of the dance and vice versa.

Victor (08:31)

Absolutely, absolutely. no, interesting. Couple of things there. the first thing I want to pick up on is so when you said that some men asked you to lead, was that just like in a, you were out one time and somebody come up to you and says, you know, can you lead me? Is that how it went? Or was it just like in a different setting where they've asked you where your friends out?

Yazza (08:48)

No,

it happens all the time. It's happened, well, it's because I think some people, particularly because of me or my skills or abilities, but people, men see me leading and, you know, they ask me, and it's happened. When I started learning how to dance, I was with a group of friends, as you are, and then, you know, there were a couple of guys in the group and they just say like, what's it like? You know, try it. So ever since I think

Victor (08:51)

well.

Yazza (09:17)

nearly since I started dancing, you know, you just when you're with your friends, you just want to, you know, try something new, do something different. It happens very regularly to me. Manon, like does this happen to you? Do men ask you to lead them?

Victor (09:30)

you

Manon Batrel. (09:33)

Yeah, I feel like it's an interesting topic because most of the time we just focus on the women leading women. So I like that you brought up the fact that men actually ask you to follow. It's very interesting. I do feel like...

I think you're right and the funny thing actually just reminded me of something. It's like when I started to dance, I remember even myself like trying to lead for no particular reason, just like maybe because I was like I didn't have any dancers to dance with or leaders to dance with, sorry. And so I would try very badly to lead or anything like this at the beginning and

And for that reason, it's actually funny because leaders don't really find themselves in that situation. So for them to go and then ask to be followers, it's for a very different reason. It's, as you said, Yasmin, for the experience, they're curious to know how it feels like to actually follow. And it does happen to me now, but more so when I'm actually following a leader, in the middle of the dance, they will switch.

they would then put themselves in a follower position and then be like, you know, not saying it like clearly, but they'll be like, come on, you know. And it's quite funny because they wouldn't normally just come and ask me and be like, okay, can you dance? But actually, can you lead me? It usually happens in the middle of the dance for me. yeah, and I find it so interesting because it's changing more and more.

Victor (11:06)

You

Manon Batrel. (11:27)

And when I started to follow again, I was just doing it like for fun. was myself even learning to be a follower. So me starting to lead was mainly for fun and not really seriously. It was like a few seconds or whatever. And so at that time, I remember it being very much of you know, men's lead and female women follow. That's it. There is no, I mean, there is no possibilities whatsoever to.

to do it any other way. And so I really enjoy the fact that the rules are being broken more and more in that sense, in a fun way and without really trying to change the dynamic of the dance, if that makes sense. So I appreciate that.

Victor (12:14)

Yeah, no, absolutely. And so it seems like it happens to Yazza more than you, Manon. Yazza's happening to her all the time. But anyway, it's all good. It happens to both of you. But what I want to say is that, so Yazza, obviously, I attended some of your sessions. And just what we're talking about here now, actually, being a follower, I didn't realize how nice it was. I didn't realize how nice it was to be led and...

And you know, I was even closing my eyes at some point. So was like, okay, now I understand what you guys do sometimes. But the point I'm making is that it's really, really nice. But obviously, it's not just a case of you follow. There's things that you need to do as well as a follower to make it, to make the dance flow better. But just the whole experience of me being a man and doing that other side, it's really eye opening as to what you ladies experience. So just wanted to share that.

With that in mind, what I want to ask you, Manon, is what are some of the differences that you notice about people who learn both roles as opposed to, I guess, people that don't? I mean, it might be an obvious question, but the people that you know that have learned leading and following, what are some of the differences that you notice in them as dancers?

Manon Batrel. (13:32)

The number one in line I would say creativity.

And it's a fine line because yes, I would like to encourage the leaders and followers to learn both roles. However, I do believe that you must first master one of them. So it's very, very important. You cannot, you know, be a brand new Kizomba dancer and think, right, Manon and Yazza said this, so I'm going to do it. Yes, you must master one role first.

Yazza (13:56)

So, thank

Manon Batrel. (14:08)

and then use the other role, which you may, you you could be a female and decided from the beginning to master being a leader. That's totally fine. But if you are, for example, a leader who wants to master to be a, a follower and a leader in the same time or vice versa, it's just, I just feel like it wouldn't really work because you wouldn't really have a clear idea of what you're supposed to do.

within the role. You will just be confused between the two informations. Once you are fully used to being either leader or follower, you already have habits, muscle memories, knowledge, posture and things that are more part of your identity as a dancer. And once you have that, I believe that learning to be the other, the opposite role.

is very interesting in terms of creativity. It gives, as you said, Victor, a different perspective on the dance. You understand now how it feels like when you perhaps as a leader do it, I don't know, do something and maybe your arms feels like this and then you realize from a follow point of view that maybe it doesn't feel good or maybe you could do it better or, you know.

silly points like this that makes make a big improvement for you, give you being improvement for you as a leader, but also will give you creativity, because you now have a better idea of the possibilities, but also the obstacles that the followers will have. And therefore will be able to navigate in between those fine lines. But also you'll be able to understand what she doesn't feel. For instance, when I started leading,

It was so interesting to see and to understand how much footwork I could do with my legs without the follower noticing. And that was an eye opener for me because I always felt that whenever the leaders were trying to do some footwork, I would feel it from the way they were doing it. And it was always disturbing. And so it would disturb my dance as a follower all the time. So when I realized the actual possibilities as a leader,

and how to do it as a leader, then it really helped me sort of disconnect and panic a little bit less about what the leaders legs were doing, for example, that's one of the aspects. But it was just, I just thought, okay, this will give me more room to maybe do some footwork as well as a follower and see the reaction of the leader. Is he gonna panic? What type of footwork can I do as a leader and vice versa? Because then it became

Victor (16:49)

hehe

Manon Batrel. (16:56)

It became a game. It just became a game between me being a leader and me being a follower and whoever I'm dancing with, I'm just going to do everything I can to trick them. If that makes sense. Yes, yes.

Victor (17:09)

Yeah, and it style to the dance as well, doesn't it? When you

do your footwork, it adds style to that. interesting points there, Manon. Yasmin, so anything that you might want to elaborate on, or does it pretty much agree with most of the things that Manon was saying there?

Yazza (17:24)

I completely agree that you should kind of find your role and then stick to it as far as you can take it and then maybe explore the other side definitely.

Victor (17:36)

100 % yeah. okay, then for both of you then, what do you think of dancers who resist learning the other role? I don't know if you've come across people who like, oh, I'm never gonna do that or whatever it might be. So what do you think about that mindset? Obviously everybody can do what they want, but I'm just asking you as teachers, what do you think about that kind of mindset?

Yazza (18:02)

Some people don't like to see two followers dancing together and two leaders dancing together. I'm sure we all might have seen that on the dance floor. And obviously they are entitled to their opinion. But they don't know what they're missing out on, basically. They can have their opinion and keep it.

Manon Batrel. (18:17)

That is a nice British way to say it. Sorry.

Victor (18:27)

Yeah.

Manon Batrel. (18:28)

Yeah, I think

Victor (18:31)

Yeah.

Manon Batrel. (18:32)

it's funny because it's something to do with what society tells us, isn't it? And funny enough, I got those comments a lot before. And funny enough, also, lot of followers don't want to be led by followers as well, because they want to be led by a man and things.

And it's a bit of a shame because when you are a female that starts to lead and you understand that it's about energy and it's not about being an actual female or male, then you can really regret it quickly. mean, I've had so many leaders that, you know, were telling me, wow, you lead better than, you know, most of us, or females that would say to me, wow, you lead better than most men in this room or whatever. And it's simply because I was able to understand that yes,

there is a leading part of it, the steps, the technique and things, but there's also a male energy that you need to absorb when leading. And there is a female energy that you need to absorb when following. And once you have these, you are able to be a leader, even if you're a beginner as a leader, it's totally fine. And your follower will feel like she can enter her female energy with you being a leader, although you are also a female.

if that makes sense. And I think it's a society problem because there was many times where I would be in events, I'm not going to mention which and who, but some male artists would come up to me and say that basically I shouldn't be leading because I'm a female or that I can't give a class as a leader, so I can't teach leaders to dance in a class because I'm a female.

Victor (19:54)

Yeah. No, yeah.

Manon Batrel. (20:24)

And like said, everyone's entitled to their opinion. But I just think it's ridiculous and it comes from ego and lack of knowledge and lack of respect, in my opinion. And I just think that as long as it's being done well and with good intention, then there is no problems.

Victor (20:28)

Absolutely, absolutely.

Yazza (20:28)

Yeah.

Manon Batrel. (20:52)

Of course, I can't imagine the scene completely shifting and everyone suddenly starting to follow and everyone starting to lead. Like the opposite or vice versa or whatever. Because of the culture around the dance, right? But it's very important to learn both.

Victor (20:59)

No, yeah.

Manon Batrel. (21:21)

and to be comfortable with that in my opinion.

Victor (21:25)

Yeah, I mean, just be comfortable. And at the end of the day, dancing is all about fun, isn't it? I always say that. you know, everyone's entitled to do what they do and no, that's fine. So that's great. So what I want to just ask you then is you talked about, talked about swapping energy. So specifically for a man, how, tell us about how we would absorb a female's energy. How, what, what do we need to do?

to absorb a female energy as a male. I'm really intrigued by that to make me a better follower.

Yazza (21:57)

Yes,

and I think it's quite hard sometimes for men to like relinquish their power kind of relinquish, give everything over, not be in control, that's what I'm trying to say, to relinquish control. You have to put your whole faith in the leader and let them take you where they're going, hopefully.

Manon Batrel. (22:07)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Victor (22:22)

Yeah. So.

Manon Batrel. (22:23)

Yeah,

think aside, I think you're spot on with that one. leaders are so used to, as you said, being in control that it's very hard for them to let go in a way. Energetically, think, again, it's less trying to take over the energy within the connection.

if we can call it like this. So having a smaller energy than your partner, that's very important. So basically leaving the leader that you will be dancing with a bit more room to give them the momentum and intention and listen. Yes. So you it's a real work and

And sometimes we think that, yeah, it's a big work for the leaders that learn to follow. It's actually a big work for the followers that learn to follow as well, to be honest. And we do go through a whole big long period of anticipation because it's a hard job to do. But I think it's definitely a first one. Of course, there is a technique, the way you step, your posture, the way you will also engage your muscles is in a slightly different way.

And actually, I know how hard it is difficult because I went through a long period in which I had to lead in all of my classes and I wasn't following anymore. And when I then had to follow again in classes, I found it very hard to let go of that power and let go of that control and let go of that energy that I had embraced. And it took me a while to

Victor (24:09)

Yeah.

Manon Batrel. (24:13)

you know, release that and go back into my sort of feminine energy as a follower. And I will always emphasize this feminine and masculine energy in the dance because that's what it's about. And it doesn't matter whether you are a male or female, it's about the energy that you embrace, really.

Victor (24:32)

Yeah.

Okay. So really got to let go. Yeah.

Yazza (24:34)

Can

Manon Batrel. (24:38)

Sorry?

Yazza (24:38)

I add something from my classes as well? Because it has been interesting. When I've been teaching before, previous to starting Project Switch, I was teaching people who were maybe not experienced dancers learning from maybe zero. And that's one route. it has been very, my classes, I've been very proud of the students that have come along because...

You know, you've got leaders who know how to dance and know how to dance very well. And for someone like you, Victor, I found that the biggest obstacle is actually one of the obstacles was actually confidence and not apologizing for making mistakes and being confident enough to kind of is lots of guesswork when you're following. There are lots of techniques and there are lots of things that you can do to make your following technique better. But at the end of the day, you just have to go for it.

and have the confidence to step and be wrong and make mistakes.

Victor (25:36)

Yeah, absolutely. That's where you learn, right? That's exactly where you learn. So yes, I'll take that.

Manon Batrel. (25:44)

But

I would add like for us as followers, it's like female followers, we started most of us following because of this, maybe someday we didn't have a leader to dance with or maybe curious to understand how it felt from the leader point of view and why we couldn't understand certain aspects of the following, right?

At least for me it was male leader and then of course for my class purposes as a teacher it's important to be able to know both aspects so I can give the best tuition to my students However for you Victor, why?

Victor (26:31)

Why did I want to learn the other side? Yeah, yeah. yeah. So, well, these are my questions, but yes, okay. Yeah. So basically it's to improve my dancing, right? So I'm very open-minded. So some of the stuff we were just talking about before about people not having that mindset, it's never gonna be in my mind, especially in dance, because I believe that you can't, you just can't.

Manon Batrel. (26:32)

Yeah?

Yes, yes, why?

Yazza (26:40)

you

Manon Batrel. (26:43)

You're being ambushed.

Victor (27:00)

elevate if you don't have an open mind and let things in and work things out. So in order to be a better dancer, I just thought you've got to embrace both sides. You have to. That's just a personal opinion. Some people might disagree. But I think that once you learn both modes, you're on your way to mastery, in my opinion. So that's the reason. Just to be better, really.

Is that all right?

Manon Batrel. (27:27)

That's very alright. No, no, that's totally fine. just... No, but I'm very glad because... Yes, when did you... You started 2014, you said?

Victor (27:39)

Me? yes, sorry.

Yazza (27:39)

I started to,

yeah, I started out with my first class. That's right. Yeah.

Manon Batrel. (27:44)

Yeah, so I started

earlier than you, but the dynamics in the scene overall was in such a way that there is no way, almost no way that at that time when I started like 2011, 2010, there's no way that it would be okay, you know, it would be like, wow. And in fact, there is this like sort of famous video on YouTube that I...

I was watching back then and it was a TV show in Angola and it's two female dancing on a TV set and I didn't really care much that they were women I just thought wow gosh they are freaking amazing you know the way they dance and everything the energy of the music and so and such and such but funny enough most men's were because that video got quite big and famous but most men's were like those women like

That's sort of the takeaway from it. So was really like sort of, I wouldn't say a taboo, but it was like a no-go. So I'm really grateful and glad that things are changing nowadays and where it's fine, like it's not an issue at all. And I do think that just opens the mind up, the minds up. And if it can help people improve in their dance, then that's a win. So yeah.

Victor (28:49)

See.

Yeah, and you

know what, I just love seeing people, whether it's two men, whether it's two women, whether it's a man or a woman, it doesn't matter. If they dance really well, you just love watching that, right? I just love watching people execute and do things well. So, but anyway, I think that's just my mindset and maybe our mindset on this call.

Manon Batrel. (29:25)

I wish there were more people like you.

Yazza (29:28)

you

Victor (29:28)

Well, you know, everyone's different, right? Everybody's different. But, Yazza, so what I want to ask you about then, because obviously we're talking about this and leading and following and you've made this class, Project Switch, so you're passionate about dancing and kizomba. So what I want to find out is what moment was there in your Project Switch that you noticed that you thought, you know what, this is why I'm doing this. This is it. Was there any moment that you thought, yes.

Yazza (29:55)

Yeah.

Victor (29:58)

That's all.

Yazza (30:00)

Definitely, you have hit the nail on the head with that question because, so I started January this year, know, it's cold, it's dark sometimes, lots of tube strikes and all sorts. I thought I'd give it a go, people came, was like, super happy that people came. It was teaching a beginner's class, but it was kind of teaching, you know, had to kind of...

Victor (30:14)

If you live in London, yes, that's what we're talking about. Yes.

Yazza (30:27)

break people down to build them back up again, because you had leaders who were following followers who are now leaders and it was kind of a, you know, people had to get used to this different role. You know, so we, was an eight week course, we started, people are very hesitant, you know, they don't know what they're doing, they're a little bit shy. And then I do remember week six was the week when the leaders started really

following and the followers were leading and they were enjoying and everybody was smiling and it was like it was a real pleasure. So yes, that definitely was that breakthrough moment. Yes. So yeah, I'm very grateful for the people who came on the course because you know there was dedication but you know to learn any skill you do have to kind of turn up and practice and you know get involved in practice at home maybe and I could see that people had really you know taken this idea on board.

Victor (31:02)

Okay. So week six, basically.

Yeah.

Yazza (31:22)

and they'd really taken it and made it their own and people were enjoying it. So was very happy.

Victor (31:29)

No, fantastic. Well, you know, keep going. That's what I'm going to say to you. Yazza. So just, just keep going with it. And Manon, you're very experienced obviously in teaching. So you've been doing it for years and what are some of the things that you notice in the people that do both sides in terms of connection and musicality? Is there anything specific that you notice? I know we've of talked about it, but is there anything that you can share more?

Manon Batrel. (31:55)

Well again, for me it's a huge improvement within the, it's a bit strange to call it the main role. So for instance, when a follower learns to lead and she or he has this strong follower identity, so first mastered being a follower and then starts learning to lead, sorry.

I then noticed a huge improvement, even if the improvement as the leader is not big, but I do notice a huge improvement for them as a follower, for example, in the way they follow, in the way they react, the way they move, the way they step, the way, you know, in overall aspects of their dance, I see a huge improvement. And equally for the leaders that start to learn to follow,

even if they're just doing it as an eye-opener or just for fun or whatever, even though they're sort of laughing about it, most of the time that's how it starts with and they start laughing about it, they then think, oh, hold on, yeah, that was all fun and things, but hold on a minute, actually, maybe all the followers that said to me that they couldn't feel my right arm taking them out of the line, maybe they were right because actually...

you know, when I'm dancing, I'm actually, as a follower, not really feeling it either. Or actually, yes, it is important for me as a follower that the leader leads me properly and things like this. it just puts them a bit more into perspective from a follower point of view. And it really improves their lead. Not really the way they step, not really the way they have a posture or anything like this, but the way they lead.

Victor (33:47)

Lead. Okay.

Manon Batrel. (33:47)

Yeah, that's

a huge improvement on that. That's what I find. And most of the time for both roles, fact, funny enough, also suddenly it triggers them a will to work harder on their dance. That's a common impact that I find is that they suddenly want to take more classes, want to learn more, want to improve more, because then it's like suddenly they realize that, it's actually not that it's not that simple.

you know, there's more layers to this. So, the impact is pretty positive overall, I find. So yeah, it's I think it's a very good thing to do. Would I do a full course as a leader? I think I would, be honest. I think I would. I think it's a great idea. And there was this festival last year where I was asked to do a Ginga class.

And for the ones that know me, I can do Ginga, there's no problem. But I am not into, you know, flick the hair and like very girly stuff or whatever. So I came up with this concept of how about leading in heels? You know, because the truth is there are lots of festivals that followers find themselves not having leaders to dance with because there's...

very often more followers than leaders in festivals. And so my idea was to do a class, you know, leading in heels. So what do you do? You're in the middle of the party, you have your heels on and you haven't danced in an hour because there's nobody to dance with. How can I actually find the right balance, the right technique to lead whilst wearing my heels? And I got declined anyway, but they didn't let me do it. So...

Victor (35:14)

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Yazza (35:36)

Manan, Manan,

Manon Batrel. (35:39)

The idea stopped there and I was like, no.

Yazza (35:39)

if you would like to come teach your class with me, I will be very happy because you, leading in heels, I actually still haven't quite mastered that yet. I find it very difficult because, your balance is, well, you know, I've seen you lead in heels very well. Your balance is somewhere different. And then there's always a feeling that you might topple over, I think. So for me, leading in heels is a class that I will definitely go to.

Manon Batrel. (36:05)

Yeah, no, I really would like to do it somewhere at some point because that is a classic situation that we as followers find ourselves into. I leaders less, I think you're less likely to be wearing heels. And of course, it's easier to swap the roles if you're wearing flats.

Victor (36:20)

Heels, yeah, yeah.

Manon Batrel. (36:28)

But it's a whole technique. i mean, wearing, you're absolutely right. mean, wearing heels and trying to lead, a lot of the time you will lose your balance because naturally when you're wearing heels, your weight is in the front of your foot. And so when you're already having a follower that you are having to give energy to and give guidance in order to lead her or he, it's very hard to do so without losing our balance. So it's an entire technique which

which I wouldn't say I mastered because I do lose my balance sometimes depending on who I'm dancing with but at least I found the way to make it work.

Yazza (37:10)

you

Victor (37:10)

Well, this

is an education because obviously, us guys, don't necessarily know. Well, I know some of the pain that you go through. I do know that when you dance. I awe you, ladies. I don't know how you do it, but you do it. But then to add another layer where you're leading as well, that's whole different thing. So I'm just taking it step by step. But anyway, people listening, hopefully you guys can do this course. Manon, hopefully you can maybe work with the Yazza on that sometimes too.

Yazza (37:36)

.

Manon Batrel. (37:39)

One day

I'll do it.

Yazza (37:40)

Yeah

Victor (37:40)

Yes,

please do. Please do. Please do. Okay, random question. Have you both, know, when you're doing this, has there's been any unexpected or funny moments that have happened when you're doing this kind of thing and switching roles, anything that comes to mind? Or any embarrassing moments that you might want to share with us?

Manon Batrel. (37:42)

Yeah.

Yazza (37:58)

embarrassing moments. On my course, you know, this class six that I've talking about where people really came into their own. And, you know, I was showing the the leaders some some free steps, the steps not in a not in partner, and they were doing the steps better than followers. It was the best I've seen people do the steps. They were fabulous, amazing. So that was a moment that, you know, and I think, you know, they were giving it their all. So it was a, that was a good

Manon Batrel. (38:22)

Wow.

Victor (38:28)

Good, positive, very unexpected, yeah. How about you, Manon, anything you can think of or?

Manon Batrel. (38:29)

Nice.

Well, I've never done courses like, yes, actually I've taught my leaders to lead. So I just endorse the role of the leader of my classes and follower, but basically had to switch and I absolutely loved it. And the funny thing is that I almost at some point sort of preferred leading in my classes.

rather than being the follower in my classes, so like showing just the followers to do the steps and yeah, that's a bit of something I have to work on, it's a bit disturbing in that sense, but I think as in like embarrassing moment,

I was never really embarrassed at any point as a leader. think a surprise of what leaders go through actually, yes. mean, there are so many festivals where I would find myself, you know, dancing with a lady and then I turn around and there's a line of other ladies, like literally like 10 of them. And my knees are on fire at that point. This is the thing, like, I don't know.

I feel like the pain is much less when you're wearing flats, but when you're wearing heels and you're leading, I mean, your knees are hurting so much because you have to put so much resistance into the floor in order to stay balanced. it's really nice and fun. But when you end up having to dance all night as a leader, because all night you're being invited to lead and you're wearing heels, you know, it's actually really painful. So.

That's like, I would say mostly the downside at like about leading in here. But leading for me is, it's been really, really great. And I love it now. Actually, I actually really love it. so yeah. Yeah.

Victor (40:35)

Yeah, love it. Okay, fantastic.

Yazza (40:38)

In terms of embarrassing moments as well, I think, you know, when you like love the music and love the dance, as a leader, Victor, I'm sure, you know, you, I don't want to call them mistakes. You know, we all kind of do these funny steps and you look odd and, but I think we'd all agree that none of us would probably be embarrassed at any of that. You know, it's just all part of the fun and the learning and I wouldn't say there's any kind of embarrassing moments.

Victor (40:38)

Fantastic.

Yeah, no, it's a bit of fun. I was just trying to find

Manon Batrel. (41:03)

Yeah.

Victor (41:04)

out if you've fallen flat on your face or anything's happening when you're doing the moves, just making it fun. But no, I get it. obviously. Yeah.

Yazza (41:10)

you

Manon Batrel. (41:10)

No, luckily I've never fallen flat on my face. I'm I was just trying to browse in my brain, like if there

was anything. No, I think, yeah, mistakes in footwork, yes, but you know, we've only got two legs after all, so you know, if we've just stepped with the wrong leg, you know, it's very quick to fix it, so it's no problem.

Victor (41:25)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, you're right. You're right. Yazz. Yeah, there's you we always but you can definitely call them mistakes. But you know, we're there to try and correct them and learn, aren't we? So yeah, just brush it off. Sometimes nobody even sees it, right? Just work it out. You know. Okay, no, listen, great. Thank you so much. I just want to also find out is okay. But for both of you open question, what's one thing you wish more leaders understood about following and more followers understood?

Manon Batrel. (41:44)

It's it's true, yeah.

Victor (41:59)

leading if that makes sense so yeah anything on that what would you say

Manon Batrel. (42:06)

Yeah,

I think for the leaders, what advice I would give to the leaders is that as followers, we truly cannot help you. And so many leaders think that, yeah, we've been in the same class and you can clearly see I'm trying to lead you this one, but actually, no, we can't. And the only reason why...

The only way for us to be able to follow a leader and be able to connect and communicate within the dance with the leader is when they have that male energy, a good posture and chest intention and a good lead. Because throughout our conversation, and I'm sure whoever is listening to this will agree with that, we've already outlined the fact that footwork is always fixable.

In other words, when a leader has the correct chest intention, the correct male energy and the correct lead, so a leading technique with their framing and right arm, for example, and of course, change direction and everything, their legs, we can't see them and we can't feel them normally. Yes, so we can have contact here and there, but whatever syncopation or tricks they're trying to do with their feet, we're not really feeling them. So they're...

their primary focus and intention should be on us. And giving us that clear intention, that clear energy, that clear focus, it should be on us. And a lot of the leaders, they just think of the footwork. They just think, yeah, I'm doing this footwork, these steps, and then you're going to get it because I'm doing these steps. And it's the other way around. So that's the one advice I would give. I don't know if you want to give the advice for the followers.

Yazza (44:02)

Yes, for the followers, I would say don't be afraid to express yourself. Don't be afraid to pause, to maybe even not follow at points, if that's what you're feeling. And in that case, the leader just has to go with it.

Manon Batrel. (44:18)

Yeah. Trick them.

Victor (44:20)

to pick it up and just

go with it yeah no no no

Yazza (44:22)

Yes.

Manon Batrel. (44:23)

Yeah, I

do this with Rico all the time, you're absolutely right. mean, there are times like, there are times I do mistakes, like I'm doing absolute nonsense, but he's just like, oh yeah, I know how to react to this. So it's like just getting used to it. And I just encourage followers to be crazy like this. Like just, as you said, express yourself, do your own thing sometimes or whatever. Cause it just, you know, give them a nice kick and push them to do better.

and be also really focused because they know at any moment we can pull something out of our hearts. Any moment something can happen. So yeah, be crazy.

Victor (45:03)

Yeah, absolutely. Sounds good. Sounds good. So great. So, Yazza, in terms of your project then and switching roles, it's going well. What are your hopes for the future for it? I mean, this is a great conversation. I'm hoping it's eye-opening for some people. And we're talking about energy and how to be. But what are your hopes for the project that you're doing?

Yazza (45:28)

So I'm going to continue the classes. I'm a big fan. think Manon as well, you do this. I'm a big fan of the course structure where you start from a certain point, you build up, and hopefully you end where people have taken on knowledge and they've built up their skills. So basically, that's what I want to do. Hopefully in May, we're going to start another course. So that's the plan. Let's see if it goes well. And then if it does, then we'll.

just keep going into the future and they create more more kizomba switches.

Victor (45:59)

Yeah, no.

Yeah, create more great, dancers. know, one of the Manon on leading on then, you know, as an experienced Kizomba teacher, know, do you, okay, this question, right? But do you think that all teachers should be required to learn both roles before teaching?

you

Okay.

Manon Batrel. (46:28)

Yes, I think so.

It's a long debate. I do think that a lot of teachers nowadays are not good enough. They're not good enough. And I'm not going to mention any names, anybody or whatever. But that is fact. I know that in five years from now, I will be better than today. Yes, because of course, I'm personally aiming to be better than I was yesterday for me, for myself. So.

It's a pressure I add on to myself. I do believe that a lot of the teachers out there, everywhere in the world in fact, for Kizomba and probably other styles of dance, are just not good enough, don't have enough knowledge as a follower or even when they are leaders as leaders. They don't have any information on how, why, when.

or any training, any proper training in the first place. So I do believe that that's the first thing to fix, if I have to be honest with you. And I also do believe that when a teacher starts teaching, opening this school or working, even teaching for somebody else, that's very, very important to learn both roles. Why? Because if let's say I am teaching with Rico, yes, and Rico tomorrow falls sick.

Does it mean I have to cancel the class because he is sick and I can't do his job? Yes? However, if you notice, a lot of the times male leaders will teach a kizomba class without a follower, without a female partner. That happens a lot. Do they have the knowledge to teach females?

95 % of the times they don't. They don't know how it feels to be a follower. They don't know how to be a follower. They don't know anything about followers at all. They don't even know how to explain them the steps anyways. However, in the cases that they have a follower partner, like a female partner, and a female partner falls sick, they don't cancel the class, do they? So what I'm trying to say here is whether you're a male or a female,

is beneficial for you and for your students to know both roles. And it should be a logic as a professional that you are able to provide a proper instruction to your students. And I would push it further. There are so many times where I find myself in class, and I'm sure Yasmin is the same for you, and a student asks a question.

Victor (49:12)

Yeah.

Manon Batrel. (49:24)

and sometimes it's related to the follower, sometimes it's related to the leader, you must know the answers and you must know it like that. And for you to know the answer like that, you need to have done your homework, you need to have done the work, you need to have the muscle memory, you need to have all of this. And this, it just makes so much sense to me, you know, and I find it a bit of a shame that it's it's not...

it's not a generality like most teachers don't even have the actual knowledge to teach their strength role, if I can call it like this. So let alone both, we are really far behind on that topic.

Victor (50:05)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, no, that's a great, great answer. Great insight. And there's not much there that I can disagree with. But obviously, you people have different opinions, but I think so it goes back to what we talking about before when I was saying, you know, learning is about mastery mastery, you get into mastery level when you can do both sides. And yeah, what you just said, I think is really, really important. So very, very good. So thank you. Thank you very much.

Manon Batrel. (50:38)

I don't

know if you have something to add about this, just think it just makes, I just think it makes sense. You know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't teach something I don't know. You know, so it's like, if you ask me tomorrow to teach Salsa, I'm just going to say no, I'm, you know, I'm not going to make things up. You know what I mean? So, but what do you think?

Victor (50:47)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yazza (51:01)

I think that you're completely right. And I think with Kizomba, you know, from the way I see it, but it's not about what it looks like from the outside, it's about the feeling. So if you're a leader and you don't know how the steps that you're teaching feel, then you probably completely missed the point. And vice versa, if you're a follower and don't know the feeling of a good lead or how, you know, how it's supposed to feel like, then you just, from my point of view, you can't teach it really.

Victor (51:30)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you to you both. So sprinkle the sauce right. So, you know, great conversation and some people listening to this. Some people might be very new to to Kizomba as well. They might be listening or watching this. So if they're feeling okay, let's say fairly new and they're feeling nervous about trying the other side.

Manon Batrel. (51:38)

Yeah, it's like... Fart.

Victor (51:58)

What advice would you give to them in terms of doing that?

Manon Batrel. (52:05)

I would say, again, as I said in the beginning of this interview, master, just pick and choose. Would you want to be primarily a leader or a follower? Okay, no judgment. That's totally fine, whatever. Once you pick that, master this. And how do you master this? You stick to one or two, maximum two teachers.

Yazza (52:06)

Hey, Peter was laughing.

Manon Batrel. (52:36)

and you work with those two teachers only. Yes, of course, if at some point you want to go to festivals or whatever, you can go there, whatever, but on a weekly basis, you have to stick to those and those only. Once you've done that, any questions related to the dance, any questions related to can be the history, the music, how to do this and why that and this and that, whatever, ask your teachers. And I think once you have a teacher,

which you trust and which knows you, they will be more able to answer your questions and guide you in the best way possible. That's my opinion because I see so many, and I'm sure you're going to say yes to this, you've heard that before, so many times I've heard people coming into the, he's on the scene of London for example, like new, you know, they just arrived in London or whatever, they're new in London or whatever.

and they go to one or two classes and then they go to start going to parties because they're trying to make friends, isn't it? And then they fall onto some people that say, oh, you don't need to go to classes, or you can just do this, or you can just go there. And those people are not teachers. They're not anybody. They don't know. They're just social dancers. And they are giving advice that are not really proper. And no offense. I mean, it's fine. Everyone's free to do whatever they want. But sometimes, you know, people miss great

great information, great parties, great classes and things just because they are just listening to the wrong people, if I can say it like that. So I'm sure you've been there, because I've been there, personally, I've been there.

Victor (54:12)

Yeah.

you

Yazza (54:16)

you

The advice that I'd give to a new Kizomba dancer is, Manon, think absolutely choosing your teachers or your teachers is a great idea. But then also combining that with going out, you just have to, with Kizomba, you just have to get involved. You have to go out. Well, you don't have to, obviously, but if you enjoy it if you want to, then just go, go anywhere. And if you're a person who's thinking of switching roles,

if you're feeling nervous about going to a class and feeling exposed, then you can just ask somebody. We all talk to people, socialise with people. If you've seen somebody in a class and then you want to switch roles, you can just ask them, you can just say, do you want to try it? And then just see what happens. But when you're a follower, you learn a lot in class. But I found as a follower that you you kind of learn these things in class.

and then you really apply them on the dance floor. And the same as a leader, you just have to go through the steps and do it many times and get things wrong, just get out there and enjoy it.

Manon Batrel. (55:29)

So for this, I won't agree with you, Yasmin. So I have to say, I personally don't agree with the point that you made about, you know, if you're a new dancer, you have to stick to the teachers, but also go out. In my opinion, when you are a new dancer, let's say you're a beginner and you're starting to learn Kizomba, and you start going out, you will just get confused.

Yazza (55:32)

Hehehehe

Manon Batrel. (55:58)

And even if you just stick to the same teacher or whatever, you'll get so confused because the repetition of the steps you would do with dancers that are in parties might be repeating it wrong. Yes, because we know it. There are so many people in parties in London and of course around the world is the same, right? Not just London. But that are not...

that never learned it properly, that sort of winged it on the dance floor and never took actual proper classes. And I think it just brings confusion. And I know this for fact from experience, but also from my own students comments, you know, I have students that did my beginner courses before that, you know, went to parties after two, three weeks and said, but why these ones do it like this and why these ones do it like that and this. And, know, I basically

What do I say? Do I say like, well, that person doesn't dance as well? Like, do I then like sort of, you know, it's, it's very complicated because they are confused and they didn't, they didn't really absorb those movements and those steps properly. So from, from a, from a professional point of view, I would say if you started dancing, you need to wait like two, three months before going out to a party from an honest point of view, like before going out to even a social or things like this, because you need to already know.

you know, more or less what you're doing and be a bit less lost than the first few days. And so, so I know that the social aspect that says, come on, go out, go make friends and this and that. And the more you've repeated, you'll be fine. Yes, but not when you just started. And in fact, when I started dancing kizomba, it was really softened. You see, I said two, three months at least before you go out. But when I started, you needed to do a whole year of beginner class before you could

Victor (57:32)

Yeah.

Manon Batrel. (57:52)

actually go to the intermediate or improved class. And you needed to ask permission to your teacher before going out to a party. So that's how it was when I started out. I do believe that in some cases it's bit extreme, I agree. But there are reasons why it was done like this. And let's not forget that the first pioneer and first kizomba teachers or teachers of the world that we had came from a different

settings, let's say, they were actually dance teachers with degrees that had to go through certain exams and certain stages in their learning journey before getting to becoming a teacher. And most of the time it was through degrees. And so it made total sense for them at the time in salsa, in bachata, same in ballet, in kizomba.

in any type of dance that you went into school to learn those dance, it made sense to have this very organized sort of hierarchy within the dance so that you could become the best dancer possible. And these are proven tools to get you there, you know. And I do think that, yes, you need to socialize and things like this, but...

you know, it's just bringing confusion into the dance when you're a brand new beginner. So yeah, the more you hold off actually, the better you will be. I've noticed this from my students, the more they just stack to class right at the beginning before going out, the better they became as dancers.

Victor (59:41)

Interesting. Interesting. But Yaz, I think, I yeah, I think Yaz, I think your, your, your sentiment came from just like, it's like muscle memory, isn't it? You're just trying to just go out there and just don't be scared and practice. So think that's where it's coming from. But I, well, I'm not putting words in your mouth, but I'm just saying that's what I'm getting from you. I mean, you can tell me, but, but no, I get what you're saying. Man on. And people listening actually would be like, wow.

Manon Batrel. (59:42)

So yeah, that's the only point I wouldn't agree, sorry.

Victor (1:00:08)

especially the people that really want to go out and socialize, they'll be like, I can't do that. Some people will be like that anyway. Do know what I mean?

Manon Batrel. (1:00:15)

Yeah, yeah. Some people do take time to get

confidence. I mean, I would never say, like me, would never say to my students, don't do this, don't do that or anything like this. They are free to do it. But it's just my personal opinion. But of course, any student, any person that goes to my class, they are absolutely free. Even if it's their first day and they want to go clubbing all night and dancing or whatever, it's totally fine. You know what I mean? So it's just different perspective.

Victor (1:00:25)

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Manon Batrel. (1:00:44)

different perspectives. And some people

learn to become amazing, amazing dancers just by going to parties and they learn in parties. Some people have that ability to do it like this, but unfortunately it's not the case for everybody. yeah, exactly.

Victor (1:00:55)

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Everyone's different. But the main thing

is enjoy the dance, enjoy the journey and try and learn it correctly. That's what we're trying to do here. Try to learn it.

Yazza (1:01:09)

Okay.

Manon Batrel. (1:01:12)

Yes, otherwise

we all get upset on the dance floor.

Victor (1:01:15)

Yeah,

try and learn it correctly. Even if I have to learn how to get my feminine energy going on as well. I gotta learn that correctly at some point. But no, ladies, I just want to say thank you so much. It's very interesting, very interesting topic, an important topic. And one of those things that if we understand it and we do it well, we can all be better dancers. So thank you very much for joining me on the podcast today.

Manon Batrel. (1:01:23)

You'll be fine. You'll be fine.

Victor (1:01:42)

What I want you to do is tell us about where we can reach you, what you're doing, know, anything that you want to talk about in terms of that respect. So it could be your socials or whatever. So Yazza, I'll start with you. What's coming up, where are you going to be? Where can we reach you?

Yazza (1:01:58)

So you can reach me on Instagram at yazza.kizomba. So y-a-z-z-a.kizomba. So I'm going to start the course again in May. So look out on my Instagram for that. But in the meantime, I'm teaching a couple of classes. They'll both be on my Instagram too. This Saturday, there's a class coming up. And then on the 6th of April, I'm teaching another class for other teachers. But other teachers have a...

reached out to me, they're interested in this SwitchCon concept, so I'm very excited about that.

Victor (1:02:32)

Fantastic and depending on where we when we send out this episode you might have missed that April date, but hey, this is the way it is. But yeah, right now it's the April. No, that's cool. And Manon, how about you?

Yazza (1:02:38)

you

Manon Batrel. (1:02:39)

yeah, god.

Well, I'm in France now, so if you want to come all the way here. No, social media, think Instagram is probably the way you would be the most successful in getting to reach me. Although Victor will debate. No, so no, at the minute we're in France, so we haven't opened up our classes yet, although we are hoping to open them from May. So...

Victor (1:02:50)

Of course.

Well, yeah.

Manon Batrel. (1:03:17)

So yes, people will have to keep an eye out on this. And then of course social media. So everything we do, every event we go to, every party we organize in London, everything is posted through our social media. And Manon Z is a dancer. And so that was a very much a French accent on that one. So yes, and Diversao, the next one is on the 19th of April, so Easter weekend.

Victor (1:03:37)

It's cool.

Manon Batrel. (1:03:45)

if the recording is out before then. But if not, yes, again, we are there in London once a month. So that's how you can catch up. I'm really sorry, yes, I'm not in London anymore to watch your beautiful classes because I would love to come. I think it's a very good and interesting topic. And I do think that

Victor (1:03:46)

Fantastic.

that time. Yeah. Okay.

Manon Batrel. (1:04:15)

London scene will really benefit from it. And I think maybe that's the keys, if we can call it like this, keys that the dancers of London really need to to improve their level overall. so so, yeah, I think it's, you know, it's very good. Well done, you. And then I know you've started all on your own, all by yourself. So really well done. I know takes a lot of work, a lot of commitment. So so really congratulations on this.

Yazza (1:04:37)

you

Manon Batrel. (1:04:45)

Really good job.

Yazza (1:04:46)

Matan, thank you very much. And then I'd also like to say that Diversao is a great party. So I love it every time and I can't wait for the next one.

Manon Batrel. (1:04:55)

Thank you, I appreciate that. It's a nice moment for us because obviously we're in France now, so it's like the one moment we're looking forward to being back with our people and it's just really good. Too quick, I think if it finished at like 6am, at least I'd have time to spend time with everybody properly. But it's like, we're back home. So, yes, thank you for that.

Yazza (1:05:12)

you

Victor (1:05:23)

Fantastic. Thank you very much, ladies. And thank you for all the work that you're doing all the time. So we love it in the community. So just before we let you go, there's always a little game that we have to play. Always a little game, right? Always. So how are we going to do this? To get to the game, I have to ask you a question before to get to the game. So what I want to ask you is a question. And whoever gets that question right, then we can start the game, because they will have

Yazza (1:05:35)

Thank

Victor (1:05:53)

first choice. right. So basically, I want you to tell me something about myself. So I've been to your classes, both of you. All right, I have classes with both of you. And I want you to tell me something about myself and whoever gets it right gets to start the game. So the question is, knowing me like you do, what do you think I struggle with the most? Is it?

Manon Batrel. (1:05:55)

Okay.

Am

Yazza (1:06:20)

Okay.

Manon Batrel. (1:06:20)

I really allowed to say it? Am I really allowed to say it?

Victor (1:06:22)

Yes, yes, yes, you can you can is is

is it is it well, this is gonna be funny. Is it musicality or is it Learning steps now. Wait a minute. I know you both might say actually Victor's both right I get that but Just choose one. What would you so? Yazza, I'm gonna ask you. What do you think I struggle with the most musicality or learning steps?

Yazza (1:06:50)

you absolutely do not struggle with musicality. know that. it has to, you know, if you're choosing one out of two, it has to be the other one steps.

Victor (1:06:59)

You say steps. Okay, Manon, what would you say? Steps. Well, you're both wrong. It's actually musicality. So that was a complete flop. But I think that my music... Yeah. I think my musicality is all over the place.

Manon Batrel. (1:07:01)

yeah steps steps for sure

Yazza (1:07:02)

you

Manon Batrel. (1:07:10)

No I-

Yazza (1:07:10)

I was looking that way.

Manon Batrel. (1:07:13)

No way! Is that a new struggle?

Is that a new struggle? I don't think so. Not at all. Not at all. But anyway, it's fine. It's fine. It's okay.

Victor (1:07:21)

Okay, all right, so obviously I'm not self-aware. I need to learn

steps, but anyway, forget that, all right.

I'm just going to choose, right? So all right. So who is two here, right? I'm going to get man on. Which one do you want, yellow or green?

Manon Batrel. (1:07:32)

Bye!

green because it's my favorite color.

Victor (1:07:43)

Okay, all right. So, man on.

Okay, you imagine, right, you've got 365 days. So that's one year. Yeah. And you can only do one of these two things for one year only, right? And you can't switch between the two. So would you rather lead every dance for a whole year or would you rather follow every dance for a whole year without switching?

Hmm.

Manon Batrel. (1:08:20)

huh.

You know what, would say follow because I do feel that I've worked so much on my lead, on my leading that I should work more on my following.

Victor (1:08:37)

So you could go a whole year with just following and not leading. fantastic.

Manon Batrel. (1:08:39)

Yeah, I

think it's necessary.

Victor (1:08:43)

Necessary. Okay. Excellent. Okay. Cool. Cool. Cool. Lovely. Thank you. Yazza. Your question is, would you rather always dance in heels or bare feet?

Yazza (1:08:56)

There's no question bare feet. Yes, I do like to put on heels sometimes but not all the time.

Victor (1:09:06)

Not all the time. Okay. So slightly easier question for you, but yeah, okay. That's just the way it goes. All right. But no, but ladies, thank you. Thank you for playing that little game of the fun. Like we always like to do at the end of the, and the podcast. I want to thank you both for joining me. It's been great. Been great listening to you. Great getting the advice and hopefully people listening and watching would have got some advice. They can take that out and start implementing it in their dance. So like I always say, thank you for joining us. And like I always say, keep dancing and we will see you hopefully on the dance floor.

soon. Peace.

Manon Batrel. (1:09:37)

Well,

can we say goodbye to you? No, no, thank you. Thank you for having us because if it wasn't for you, these sort of conversations wouldn't happen. So we are very grateful that you created this for our community and you're really nice person. So, no, I would...

Victor (1:09:40)

Yes, say goodbye, of course, we say goodbye now.

Manon Batrel. (1:10:02)

I haven't asked everybody, but I'm sure everyone is very grateful for your hard work. So thank you for that. It really means a lot to all of us.

Victor (1:10:08)

Thank you, no,

thank you very much. And thank you for the services you provide in this wonderful dance that we all enjoy. So keep it up. That's what I say. Okay, so now we can say goodbye.

Manon Batrel. (1:10:21)

Yes. Good bye guys.

Victor (1:10:22)

Peace, people.

Bye.